A6/C6 injector PROBLEM - Replacement/refurbished injectors possible?

[hotfire2009]

Well, it gets better and better - Thank guys for the support, comments and guidance so far. I'm not over confident about some Audi dealerships; I remember about 2 years ago when I asked if I could have am AMi upgrade and I was told it wasn't possible on my car - loss of confidence or what!

Thanks everyone so far.

[gupsterg]

I asked if I could have am AMi upgrade and I was told it wasn't possible on my car - loss of confidence or what!

had that conversation with my local Audi dealer, trust me my first visit was BAD ... they handed my a quote of nearly £1k worth of general servicing even though onboard comp. still say 3000 miles xxxdays... usually what I do in year but A6 I've luved driving so much that done nearly 6K in since buying Aug 11... and via health check created mini flood under carpet check this https://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/s...859#post700859 I don't know if I should have thanked them or not ...
but thank Tech God for WWW as that help sort that and servicing car@home...

[gupsterg]

Right peeps this where I am on my injectors will be doing further tests today to check...

Besides using info from A8 Tech's posts... stuff I've been using/studying...

Reference docs: TPI 2012744/6 Rattling noises for 1 - 2 seconds after start - V6 2.7/3.0 TDI

Extracts for this context:

Customer statement / workshop findings

a. ........

b. Noticeable speed drop in starter motor. Brief metallic knocking noise after the start.

Technical background

a. .....
b. This complaint can be mixed up with something else. If the injectors start to leak (injector needle wear), after a stationary period of 10 - 20 minutes this can lead to accumulation and evaporation of fuel in the combustion chamber.

This makes starting the engine more difficult. The fuel accumulation leads to a premature ignition in the combustion chamber and hence to a metallic knocking (hard combustion). Similar to an incorrect chain tensioner!

Note:

Before fitting an optimised chain tensioner, make sure that the complaint is not caused by one or several leaking injectors.

b. Check: Read measured value block 70 - 77 in the engine control unit and proceed according to TPI 2013969. Attachment 17121


My car data...

Tuesday,19,June,2012,21:02:27:06090
VCDS Version: Release 11.11.3
Data version: 20120401

Initial Scan	After Engine Start	After Engine Shutdown
Address 01: Engine (4F0 910 401 L) 20:55:04 Group 072 -36.0 ms Time Corr. -8.0 ms Time Corr. -4.0 ms Time Corr. 20:55:04 Group 073 -2.0 ms Time Corr. -2.0 ms Time Corr. 0.0 ms Time Corr. 20:55:04 Group 074 -14.0 ms Time Corr. -2.0 ms Time Corr. -2.0 ms Time Corr. 20:55:45 Group 075 -14.0 ms Time Corr. -2.0 ms Time Corr. -2.0 ms Time Corr. 20:55:45 Group 076 -26.0 ms Time Corr. -16.0 ms Time Corr. -8.0 ms Time Corr. 20:55:45 Group 077 -38.0 ms Time Corr. -14.0 ms Time Corr. -8.0 ms Time Corr.	Address 01: Engine (4F0 910 401 L) 20:58:42 Group 072 -36.0 ms Time Corr. -8.0 ms Time Corr. -4.0 ms Time Corr. 20:58:42 Group 073 -2.0 ms Time Corr. -2.0 ms Time Corr. 0.0 ms Time Corr. 20:58:42 Group 074 -14.0 ms Time Corr. -2.0 ms Time Corr. -2.0 ms Time Corr. 20:59:04 Group 075 -14.0 ms Time Corr. -2.0 ms Time Corr. -2.0 ms Time Corr. 20:59:04 Group 076 -26.0 ms Time Corr. -16.0 ms Time Corr. -8.0 ms Time Corr. 20:59:04 Group 077 -38.0 ms Time Corr. -14.0 ms Time Corr. -8.0 ms Time Corr.	Address 01: Engine (4F0 910 401 L) 21:02:22 Group 072 -36.0 ms Time Corr. -8.0 ms Time Corr. -4.0 ms Time Corr. 21:02:22 Group 073 -2.0 ms Time Corr. -2.0 ms Time Corr. 0.0 ms Time Corr. 21:02:22 Group 074 -14.0 ms Time Corr. -2.0 ms Time Corr. -2.0 ms Time Corr. 21:02:43 Group 075 -14.0 ms Time Corr. -2.0 ms Time Corr. -2.0 ms Time Corr. 21:02:43 Group 076 -26.0 ms Time Corr. -16.0 ms Time Corr. -8.0 ms Time Corr. 21:02:43 Group 077 -38.0 ms Time Corr. -14.0 ms Time Corr. -8.0 ms Time Corr.

Second round of test I've done...

Reference docs: TPI 2014211/7 Vehicle pinks or judders in warm-up phase- A8 3.0, 4.2, A4, A6, Q7 2.7, 3.0 TDI

Customer statement / workshop findings

A8 3.0 TDI, 4.2 TDI; A4, A6, Q7 2.7TDI, 3.0 TDI - vehicle pinks or judders in warm-up phase.

As a result, the adjustment of the injection is incorrect and combustion noises can be heard, sometimes in connection with juddering or misfiring.

Technical background

Complaint in the injector production.

Production change

Modified injector production from Chassis No:

A4: with 3.0l TDI from: ........

A6: with 3.0l TDI from: ........

Cabriolet: with 3.0l TDI from: ........

A8: with 3.0l, 4.2l TDI from: ........

Q7: with 3.0l TDI from: ........

Measure

Try to reproduce the customer complaint so that it can be clearly assigned to this TPI. The following repair must only be carried out, if all the criteria (model/type, chassis number, engine/gearbox code, PR number(s), software version, code etc. ) match exactly. Otherwise this solution won't work and repeat repairs may be necessary. In such a case, we may reject the warranty claim and redebit the parts.

Incorrect injectors can be established as follows:

After an overnight stationary period drive the vehicle with cold engine between 1200 - 1600 rpm till the complaint occurs. Constantly read the measured value block 13 and 14 for the smooth running control in the engine control unit. The values of one or several cylinders should noticeably move to positive.

Replace the injector with the highest deviation and all injectors produced between 1.3.2006 and 30.4.2006.

Example of production date: 060304 stands for 4.3.2006

If the values are correct, look for the cause elsewhere.

When sending in the injectors attach the measured value blocks 13 and 14 of the engine control unit.

My car data...

My first log Attachment 17118 this was from cold start standing overnight

My third log Attachment 17119 this was from cold start standing overnight

My A6 Avant 3.0 TDi 55 Plate '05
Engine code: BMK Injectors P/N: 059 130 277 S Date code: to be checked...

Module 1 Log

Address 01: Engine Labels: Redir Fail!
Part No SW: 4F0 910 401 L HW: 4F0 907 401 A
Component: 3.0L V6TDI G000AG 0040
Revision: --H01--- Serial number:
Coding: 0011772
Shop #: WSC 02334 785 00200
VCID: 254BDA7FECFA271

So now I need someone to tell me if my injectors are good or bad please & thank you...

As I've got better with doing this I will do another set of tests doing smooth acceleration/deceleration between 1200 -1600 rpm for second test...

If anybody wondering why I'm doing this I have chain rattle have been to VAG Specialist he suspects chain tensioner is my issue as £2k fix before booking want know if injectors are good or else change as well..

If injectors are iffy then maybe another £1.5K so want to make a more informed decision...
Wanted some clarification from VWAF bod's

Out of TPI 2012744/6 Rattling noises for 1 - 2 seconds after start - V6 2.7/3.0 TDI I have both issue's I think

a. For 1-2 seconds the engine makes sporadically rattling noises after the start. (Tensioner)

b. Noticeable speed drop in starter motor. Brief metallic knocking noise after the start. (Injectors)

Out of TPI 2014211/7 Vehicle pinks or judders in warm-up phase- A8 3.0, 4.2, A4, A6, Q7 2.7, 3.0 TDI

I get none of those issues just used for information, measuring blocks and better understanding...

My brain is now frazzled so please can someone interpret

[Crasher]

So are you of the opinion that your timing chains need replacing?

[gupsterg]

Hi crasher, thanks for reply...

Yes, I suspect timing chains, I've been to see a workshop from description of fault I gave and them starting and then switching off waiting restarting car they felt that was diagnosis... I never first divulged what I thought it might be...

He gave me verbal quote of £1500 to £2000, I said let me get money together then will look in booking/quote etc this was a several weeks/months ago...

I also wanna check/know state of my injectors before pay for chains to make better judgement...

In the meantime I been researching faults and solutions...
Starter control/cranking MVB seem ok to me, battery has been tested as good for cranking test at local battery shop...
Rattle@startup happen sporadically, sometimes none at all, nothing lose in engine bay AFAIK done full service at home... only in Jan 12

Rattle@startup even if starter never pause for some instants...
Sometimes starter pause then you guaranteed rattle@startup...

[a8 tech]

firstly replace the right bank tensioner (most common)

this can be done in situ takes 3 hours

if this doesn't sort it replace the full chain assembly (engine out)

its unlikely to be the injectors as you normally suffer white smoke as well and pre ignition

the chains can snap so bare this in mind

[gupsterg]

Hi A8, thanks for reply

I've looked at this thread Timing chain noise 2.7 v6 tdi then studied this as well audi 3.0tdi engine measurement blocks and this Audi A8 3.0 White smoke on cold start up

I am happy to just get all chains done in one hit, rather pay £2k and know done than replace lump...
I am probably also going to get Tiptronic oil and filter done...

Before taking plunge just wanted to eliminate injectors... as I've been contemplating shall I just P/X and get another A6 but very difficult sometimes to find same spec as Avant I got in 3.0 TDI in limited budget plus some retro's are a) PITA to do b) cheaper to get car with them in

Like this is good example but 2.0 TDI Audi A6 Avant 2.0TDI SE Auto LEDS Xenons Nav Soft Close Doors Elec Mem Seats | eBay

I don't do lot miles my last car 20k in 5 years, I just want something that makes me grin RS6 out of my league so next best IMO 3.0 TDI

I've also now just got it to state I like, other than this issue... I get no smoke other than usual diesel would produce@full throttle on first burst of acceleration (black), idle none regardless of outside/engine temp, cold wintery morning first start standard amount of smoke in my view for diesel with no DPF, she drink no oil, coolant clear pink.

Paid £10K Aug 11 70K on clock now at 77K Attachment 17124

[joedredd]

Hi Gup

Just noticing lately that I am getting the dreaded "white smoke" whilst in stationery traffic, which I am assuming mean the injector/s need replacing. Do you have any idea how long they will last? as want to try and make them last until service/ MOT in October if possible. Thinking might get them cleaned via the terraclean as soon as I can find someone who can do it.

[gupsterg]

.... Do you have any idea how long they will last? ....

Sorry mate no idea but some people are just carrying on until they go pop... check this thread A6 in need of some advice

Thinking might get them cleaned via the terraclean as soon as I can find someone who can do it.

Do not know if this gonna help because smoke is because of physical wear on injector as much as I understand from delving into this issue...

This is the TPI that apply to your issue

Technical product information	Transaction No.: 2013969/11
White smoke or juddering at idle speed - V6 2.7 l / 3.0 l TDI	Release date: 11-Aug-2008

Customer statement / workshop findings

White smoke from the exhaust system and juddering when the engine runs at idle speed for some time - V6 TDI 2.7l / 3.0l TDI.

Technical background

Mechanical wear of the needle attachment of the injector leads to an increased fuel injection into the combustion chamber. The fuel is not completely burnt, which causes white smoke (unburnt fuel) or juddering when the engine runs at idle speed for some time.

This complaint occurs only on vehicles with more than 50,000 km.

Measure


Read the measured value blocks 72 - 77.

3 values per measured value block appear there (for 300 bar, 600 bar, 1000 bar).

Should the values be higher than minus -45 ms (example - 60ms) or

on digit 2 be

higher than minus -15 ms (e.g. 20ms),

the needle attachment is worn and the injector is incorrect. To avoid repeat repairs, replace all 6 injectors.

>>>> Observe the algebraic sign (minus) in measured value block 72-77 !!!!! <<<<<

[joedredd]

Hey Gup looks like there is now a BE version;

NEW GENUINE AUDI A4/A5/A6/Q7 3.0 TDI INJECTOR 059 130 277 BE TUAREG 059130277BE | eBay

Same part number, perhaps they are still using us for guinea pigs!!