Car clocked from 180K to 100k!

[Nocturne]

Hey,

I recently went to buy a car that I'd won off ebay - would've been the third I've bought off there now. The mileage of the car was quoted at 100k and said this on the clocks, the owner also had 3 years worth of MOT's that proved this as legit.

However, since buying the full version of VCDS, I take it everywhere when I or my friends are considering buying a new VAG. I had checked the car for fault codes - all clear. Then packed the laptop away, it was only when I was on the phone to the insurance company that I had remembered I hadn't checked the mileage, even though I was convinced it would be fine.

It came back reading 180,000 and I was absolutely gob-smacked. I told the insurance company I had to call them back and broke the news to the seller, who'd innocently bought it from a local garage six months ago. Although he was probably convinced I had made this up to back out of the sale, I shook his hand and headed to the nearest VW garage to see if they could give me any advice. They checked the cars service history just from the registration and proved it had been in 3 times with a mileage over 100,000, in 2004 and 2005. I then took the print out back to the seller who said he would be in contact with trading standards and fight for a refund from the garage.

It's now been nearly 2 weeks and I've just heard from the seller who's now saying that he intends to keep the car because of lack of proof against it being the wrong mileage. And claims it's not against to law to own a clocked car, but to do the clocking would be. Is he right? What would you have done in his position? I would personally have gone for the refund and appreciate I've had a car for free for 6 months without any depreciation.

[adamss24]

Its just common practice nowadays, i have friends who bought cars with "massaged" speedos from carcraft and car giant ! If the punters would not look for low mileage cars then there wont be crooks clocking them...

[Eshrules]

the amendment of odometers is not illegal, as long as it is for the correct purpose.

Nor, annoyingly, is it illegal to sell a car with an amended odometer, as long as the buyer has been informed.

It's not illegal either, to own a car with an amended odometer.

Reducing a cars mileage, with the intention to increase it's value and failing to inform the buyer is illegal.

Returning a car to a seller after 6 months of fair usage for a full refund is nigh on impossible - I got very lucky with a resolve I reached - many are not nearly as fortunate.

If returning a car to a seller for a full refund for such reasons, it is reasonable of the seller to reduce the amount they refund in relation to the use the vehicle has received.

Personally, if the car is a solid car, I would chalk the experience up and move on - it'll be difficult to prove exactly who has reduced the mileage.

[Nocturne]

" it'll be difficult to prove exactly who has reduced the mileage"

When I went to the VW garage they said if they plugged it up to their diagnostics, it would say the mileage that any parts were changed - even changing gearboxes etc which don't contact the ECU with older cars are still recorded when they're changed - all automatically by the car.

So they would be able to pinpoint the exact mileage and then through the DVLA would be able to find the owner.

If everyone else seems to care so little about clocked cars, I might start doing it myself...I just can't believe no one seems to bat an eyelid over such a serious matter.

[famous geezer]

Seems like you can't trust anyone these days. As for Car Giant - don't get me started ...

[Eshrules]

" it'll be difficult to prove exactly who has reduced the mileage"

When I went to the VW garage they said if they plugged it up to their diagnostics, it would say the mileage that any parts were changed - even changing gearboxes etc which don't contact the ECU with older cars are still recorded when they're changed - all automatically by the car.

So they would be able to pinpoint the exact mileage and then through the DVLA would be able to find the owner.

If everyone else seems to care so little about clocked cars, I might start doing it myself...I just can't believe no one seems to bat an eyelid over such a serious matter.

so you can physically prove that the owner, at a certain time/date/mileage of that vehicle's life, was the person who clocked it?

You can't - that was my point.

Feel free to prod fun at my advice - I've been the victim of clocking myself - if you bothered to read the links in my sig, you'd see that and the lengths I had to go to, to recoup my money.

I give up on here sometimes - you try to help people out and you get attacked in return!

[Nocturne]

I was certainly not attacking you nor ignoring your advice. I just didn't know how you could be so obtuse, when the parts manager at the VW garage said it would be perfectly trackable.

And how are the garage not to blame when all it takes is a diagnostics plug in to tell you the car has been clocked. They should have corrected the mileage and then sold it rather than just selling it as it is.

Surely there is some breach of a trading standards regulation there. Especially when you say, it's illegal to sell a clocked car when the value is that of a lower mileage!

I'm not prodding fun at anyone's advice, was just trying to bring a little more awareness of how people can avoid situations like this. As well as positive advice on where to go from here, not just give up you've got no chance. Eventually this car will end up in someone elses hands, when it says 120K on the clock it will actually have done 200k and you could be the one buying it. How would you feel if that situation could have been prevented, but that person didn't try because there was apparently little chance of anything coming from it.

[Eshrules]

I was certainly not attacking you nor ignoring your advice. I just didn't know how you could be so obtuse, when the parts manager at the VW garage said it would be perfectly trackable.

And how are the garage not to blame when all it takes is a diagnostics plug in to tell you the car has been clocked. They should have corrected the mileage and then sold it rather than just selling it as it is.

Surely there is some breach of a trading standards regulation there. Especially when you say, it's illegal to sell a clocked car when the value is that of a lower mileage!

I'm not prodding fun at anyone's advice, was just trying to bring a little more awareness of how people can avoid situations like this. As well as positive advice on where to go from here, not just give up you've got no chance. Eventually this car will end up in someone elses hands, when it says 120K on the clock it will actually have done 200k and you could be the one buying it. How would you feel if that situation could have been prevented, but that person didn't try because there was apparently little chance of anything coming from it.

Obtuse? Hold up - show me where I was obtuse?

You cannot physically prove who clocked the vehicle. You can only estimate, via records available, at which point it was clocked and then suggest who may have clocked it. You will never have irrefutable proof that it was Mr Joe Bloggs.

Re the trading standards point, I'll point you to my links in my signature.

TS will only investigate the supplying dealer if he is shown to be purposely rolling vehicle mileages back, in order to increase their market value.

Sometimes vehicles get clocked and, through a lack of provided history, it can go undetected.

I by no means, said give up you've got no chance - I'm the last person to give up so far as consumer rights and upholding them are concerned, you can ask anyone on this board who knows me - I'm notoriously argumentative and if I believe there is something to fight for, I will fight for it tooth and nail.

[phil miller]

And how are the garage not to blame when all it takes is a diagnostics plug in to tell you the car has been clocked. They should have corrected the mileage and then sold it rather than just selling it as it is.

just to jump on the band wagon about 4 yrs ago my ex boss bought a passat TDI from auction, lovely car in white W plate iirc it had 102,000 miles on the clock, anyway we had a lady came in and take it on a test drive, she loved it, we had a bucket load of history and some MOTs anyway about 2 days later she called to ask why we had clocked the car, we told her we hadnt and my boss produced the sheet from the manheim stating mileage as 102,000 miles she then came in with a fax from a company up the line that had been servicing it and even replaced the turbo, thing was the turbo had been replaced 155,000 miles some 2 yrs before we got it in the end the car went back to auction and i never asked about the out come, my point in this is MOST garages dont have vagcom or vcds, and when a car is purchased from auction with the stated mileage they dont question it, im with ESH T/S prob wont batter an eyelid at it, if the seller has it back he will just sell it on again via ebay or somewhere similar

[Bratty]

I am biased to Nocturne`s side on this one, I understand that "Clocking happens" but if buyers do not make the effort to apportion blame on the people who should know better ie.Dealerships! (Why does AUDI,VW ETC. not offer a free readout service irrespective of where the car was bought) then how can the private buyer possibly stand a chance (I do not carry a laptop with the Vehicle diagnostic software of every car I buy!). And i understand "FULLY" that Esh has done the rounds on this topic but despite that!, the more people who fight back (Irrespective how long it takes to discover the CRIME!) then hopefully there will be a situation that offers protecion to the buyer.

Dunk