3.0tdi quattro tiptronic - transmission details

[TheMatador]

Have posted all this information here under the right forum following various posts about whether or not to change the fluid in my Tiptronic box after about 75kmiles.

Just had the car up on the ramps today and the tiptronic box is a ZF 6HP19A unit. It has a metal sump, not the plastic one with the integral filter. Required fluid is therefore Lifeguard8 (G 060162 A1 / A2 / A6 ATF). Looks like using a different fluid would require a software update to tell the box the right coefficient of friction.

From looking on the ZF site the box has a torque limit of 400Nm (295ft.lb) which is a concern as the engine supposedly puts out 450Nm.

ZF parts catalogue for transmission here: http://www.zf.com/na/content/media/import/zf_na/startseite/sso/passenger_car___light_truck/car_driveline/manuals__charts__literature/6HP_19-21_Catalog.pdf

Alternative site here suggests max torque of 420Nm. (http://www.tsgparts.net/images/pdf/6HP19A.pdf)

Here's a presentation from ZF on all their transmissions and the relevant "Lifetime" fluid.
http://www.apra-europe.org/dateien/downloads/APRA_Birmingham_Hans-Peter_Bach_ZF_Transmissions_with_Mechatronics.pdf

Here's a useful post on changing the fluid (though on the BMW it has a plastic sump):
http://forums.5series.net/index.php?showtopic=88129&st=0

[Marc1]

Great info there. Slightly worried about the fact the box used is a ZF 6HP19A, as you've mentioned it's shown as suitable for 400NM, but Audi suggest the car comes with 450NM. Even more concerning for anyone with a remap or thinking of remapping, I'd fall into that bracket :-( doh!! Maybe manual IS the way forward after all, back to to the drawing board.

Aparantly the BMW 330d / 530d gets the ZF6HP26 box rate to 600NM, not fair :-(

[TheMatador]

Yes, I'm a bit surprised too. There's two questions I would really like to find the answers to now:

1. Has Audi undersized the transmission for this engine?
2. Is it realistic to never change the ATF in a box that is apparently operating beyond its design limit?

[Crasher]

It didn’t help the shift quality on the one I have just done, looks like it needs a recon box. It is possible that it is not strong enough, possibly they should have fitted the 6HP26.

[TheMatador]

Oh dear. Is this an uncharacteristic error from a German outfit :smashfrea

[Crasher]

Remember this box is not unique to VAG, a lot of other manufacturers use it and it is unreliable in all of them.

[TheMatador]

What sort of issues do you typically see and at what sort of mileage?

[Crasher]

Poor shift quality (thumping shifts) starting from around 50K.

[TheMatador]

Interesting - do you think its to do with the fluid never being changed or do you think the box is undersized for the engine?

[Crasher]

I don’t think it is the oil change intervals and the box is within its design torque limitation in that installation, I just think those boxes are prone to problems. The 5HP19 was just as bad if not worse.

[TheMatador]

Here's a huge thread from a BMW forum talking about the issue of transmission torque limits and remaps:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46264

From this there are a few factors that mean the design is probably ok:
1. Max input torque is if the output were completely locked up - not likely to happen
2. There is a torque converter in the way which will protect the box

The only time when the box is likely to experience the max torque is pulling away from standstill. In this case the torque converter is not locked so the box will not see 450Nm. The converter only locks up when the engine & transmission speeds are equal - so even if you floor it the wheels are still turning so there is an output for the torque.

[Crasher]

I think an important consideration with the use of this type of transmission in the car of the devil opposed to an Audi is that the Audi install is four wheel drive whereas the “other” isn’t and so the onset of wheel spin may help protect the box.

[TheMatador]

Yes, that's right. For sure 4wd increases the load on the box.

[TheMatador]

Looks like ZF recommend changing the lifetime fluid between 50-75k miles depending on driving conditions.

Thanks to meurosport site found the following information in ZF literature (http://www.meurosport.com/ZF_Transmission_Fluid.php):

"5 and 6-speed as well as 4HP20 automatic transmissions:
ZF 5 and 6-speed as well as the ZF 4HP20 automatic transmissions are filled maintenance-free with specially developed partially synthetic ATF oils. Maintenance-free fills are intended for normal operating conditions. Especially driving at very high operating temperatures can result in accelerated aging or increased wear of ATF oils. It is recommended, in the event of severe operating conditions, such as:
- frequent highway driving in top speed range, - offensive, sporty driving style, - frequent trailer operation,
being above average, oil purification (oil change) on automatic transmissions is recommended between 80,000 km and 120,000 km, or 8 years, depending on the load. In each case, only released ATF oil may be used for oil changes. And oil changes must be performed in accordance with the relevant specifications."

Link to ZF doc: http://www01apps.zf.com/kst464/ZF_InteroeleV2_manager/Work/2009-10-01/TE-ML%2011_en0700.pdf

[a6audiman]

The new 2009 spec claims 500nm and 240bhp so either Audi had better have done their sums or they may be looking at raking in the extended warranty for us poor mugs as I understand a replacement box will not see much change out £4K

[TheMatador]

Yeah, I've been mulling this whole transmission torque things over for a while and I think its probably ok - even with a remap. The transmission is protected by not locking up the tc clutch too soon at low speeds in low gears & probably some other software stuff.

Once you're moving it'll be fine. I guess Audi went with this lower rated box to save on weight.

I've also put the idea of a fluid change on ice as I spoke to a local transmission specialist who said I would be wasting my time - and that was after they'd already ordered the parts (Hardy Engineering - Leatherhead, jolly decent chaps). They said the fully synth fluid doesn't break down and the filter is able to cope with the normal wear materials.

[V5 Man]

Just trawling through the forum and seen this thread which has given me a concern.

I've just ordered a 3.0 TDI Quattro Le Mans and was planning a plug in mod or a remap
The Audi A6 brochure states 500 Nm of torque for this configuration (Audi.co.uk states 450 Nm).

Which one is correct?
Does the 2010 build cars have the same ZF gearbox (ZF 6HP19A)?

Either way a remap / mod box would add approx 70 Nm (= 520 or 570 Nm), will this kill the auto box?

[Guest 2]

Poor shift quality (thumping shifts) starting from around 50K.

Sorry for the hijack, im getting this, its in traffic where it crawls up to about 5mph in 1st and thumps into 2nd.

Any cure?

Chris

[TheMatador]

Just trawling through the forum and seen this thread which has given me a concern.

I've just ordered a 3.0 TDI Quattro Le Mans and was planning a plug in mod or a remap
The Audi A6 brochure states 500 Nm of torque for this configuration (Audi.co.uk states 450 Nm).

Which one is correct?
Does the 2010 build cars have the same ZF gearbox (ZF 6HP19A)?

Either way a remap / mod box would add approx 70 Nm (= 520 or 570 Nm), will this kill the auto box?

I think you'll probably get the newer 6HP21A which is rated at 450Nm. My guess is you'll be fine with a remap for the reasons stated earlier in the thread. The box will only see max engine torque when the clutch is locked-up and that will never happen when the wheels aren't moving. You pays your money and you takes your chances though.

Be interested to know what extra your insurance quote. I abandoned the idea of a remap when the quotes were at least +£200 and the excess jumped to £800!

[Crasher]

Sorry for the hijack, im getting this, its in traffic where it crawls up to about 5mph in 1st and thumps into 2nd.

Any cure?

Chris


The one I just did needed a box rebuild to cure that.

[wjam]

Just to let everyone know that my car "thumped" through the transmission when going on /off throttle at low speed (< 20mph) and a little jerky 1st to 2nd... but it was cured by removing the pile of leaves and twigs in the airbox duct! So if the intake is blocked (which it almost certainly will be if you have a full Audi service history(in my opinion)), it starts fueling strange and causes all sorts of issues.

I just say, cos it's easier and cheaper than changing the gearbox.. worth a look

ciao

WJAM

[TheMatador]

Jammy again! I can't believe you've had two potentially expensive problems and fixed them both with minor tinkering!
I occasionally get a thumping change 1st to 2nd when I'm in slow moving traffic - I thought because I've caught the gearbox out with a throttle poke when it was mid change at very low speed. I'll check the air duct.

Out of interest - why does everyone with a full Audi history get a blocked air duct?

[Crasher]

Blocked air duct?

[wjam]

Crasher, you're having a laugh right? The little duct from the front to the air box - it has a mesh basic filter before it goes into air box.. . Mine was stuffed for a good 4 to 5 inches with leaves twigs and assorted wildlife. In the 5 years and full Audi service history prior to me buying the car it has never been looked at.. And it takes the best part of 1 full minute to do. Lamentable.

Further suspicion arises since I just changed the high pressure pump and took the old one apart (more specifically the IMV) and it was full of crap too. How does that crap get past the diesel filter?? Wait!!! perhaps they only charged for the filter rather than actually change it, like they did with my glow plugs... Makes one wonder.

Anyway, I do admit I sometimes get a little thump if the car was thinking to move to 2nd and I slow down (much to the super computers surprise)... But otherwise it's super smooth. Still I want to change the oil and filter cos it's 90K miles now and I'd prefer to keep it this way

cheers

WJAM

[Crasher]

No, I hardly ever see that.

[TheMatador]

Still I want to change the oil and filter cos it's 90K miles now and I'd prefer to keep it this way


Are you going to do it yourself? Very interested to know how you get on and the condition of the fluid you drain - I looked into this earlier in the year but haven't gone ahead yet...

[wjam]

Yeah I plan to do it cos non of the french garages seem to want to do it right.. I've been told to drain and fill, then drain and re-fill at 20000kms to clear the sludge, but that sounds like a bodge job (although otherwise he seems to be a good mechanic). another said leave it if it works... and audi said "sealed for life" but we'll do it for a small ransom (suggesting it's not sealed for life)

My problem is not having a garage or covered area and I can tell you it's pretty fresh at 3000ft (where I live) today, so I'll leave that till spring I think. But I'll post on the agony or otherwise afterwards no problem

wjam

[TheMatador]

Thanks and good luck:beerchug:

[gianton]

Could anyone please advise where to buy tiptronic fluid ATF 0060162A2?

[Crasher]

From Audi.

[wjam]

Gianton.. You can also try

http://www.automaticchoice.com/uk_index.html

You need to register but they respond fast and have all parts for the tiptonic ZF boxes.

I intend to buy the gaskets filter and oil etc. in spring

WJAM

[gianton]

From Audi.

Only from Audi right? It is very expensive at &euro;65 per liter and thought to find it aftermarket.

[gianton]

Gianton.. You can also try

http://www.automaticchoice.com/uk_index.html

You need to register but they respond fast and have all parts for the tiptonic ZF boxes.

I intend to buy the gaskets filter and oil etc. in spring

WJAM

Thanks for the link mate I have sent them an email.

[wjam]

see my post above. They have everything. i don't have a quote yet but will soon.

WJAM

[wjam]

Oops we posted simultaneously

[gianton]

I guess Crasher is right, just called www.automaticchoice.com and they said that best price I could find is from my Audi dealer.

I think I will leave it as is, Audi recommends not to change it anyway. Too expensive for being so ****, 9lt x 65 euros + installing labour= around 650 euros.

[wjam]

How bizzare.. What is their point of being in business if they cannot beat the franchise price? It's like I discovered here in France, I go to an independent and order a part.. he walks across the road to audi franchise and orders the part... cost is the same cos he gets his professional discount and marks back up to Audi price. This is close to price fixing to me.

So now I try to find the exporter for the parts or the maker. I will try ZF directly. They have a repair network.

by the way, sealed for life is nonsense. Audi told me that it was sealed for life then promptly recommended to change the oil at around 150k km... For a grand. Err what happened to sealed for life.. Ah your car is very old now.. maybe you would consider a new one.. AH HA sales tactic. i'd just bought it....

The practice of car manufacturers and dealers is becoming very dodgey.. Like the HPFP.. the little fuel inlet valves can stick causing stalling but they won't sell you one.. too cheap or something so they didle you for the whole pump... 1300 euro from audi, but i see other manufcaturers using the same type of pump sell the valve for 120... and I hear a rumour audi just change the valve but charge for the pump.. Rumour I should emphasize... from a professional car mechanic...

If these "lifetime" parts subsequently require you to replace them at a pre defined interval they are service items and the car company is simply cost cutting at our expense.
Car manufacturers should follow the recommendations of the part manufacturer (such as ZF in the case of the gearbox), but Audi seem to do their own thing (at our expense)

rant over

WJAM

[gianton]

@wjam
Thanks for your input you are right mate, maybe I will have it changed at 150k km. I am on 120k km and a service is due next week so cost will be too much have both done at 120k km.
So do you think it needs changing every 150k km?

[wjam]

Here's an A8 getting the gearbox done. Pretty much the same deal.

http://www.audipages.com/Tech_Articles/auto_transmission/autotranservicing.html

The problem is the long complicated heating and re-filling procedure. Actually it's not so complicated, but seems it wasn't exactly thought out at the design phase.

So Oil, pan gasket some o-rings for the bungs and a filter... Oh and the super expensive oil. Which i will talk to ZF about.

cheers
WJAM

[gianton]

Thanks for the link, Audi service said to me the same thing that they have to watch the temp of the engine with the computer.

Please let me know if you have any success with ZF regarding the oil. BTW what is your car?

[wjam]

2005 3.0Tdi tiptronic with sports suspension and fancy 2 tone beige /grey leather seats, sat nav etc etc.

205 hp version. I might get it chipped, but to be honest it's fine. The chipping would be as much to improve economy as anything, but purely on economy it's a 50-50 call (price to benefit) as the chipping is expensive here in france. But I do like a bit of acceleration ;)

The only thing that puzzled me on this car is why the person who spent 50k euro on it new didn't get the heated seats and heated mirrors... I mean when you buy all the options why not the last 500 euro??

cheers

WJAM

[gianton]

Today had a visit to my local Audi dealer for the service at 120.000km and asked them if Shell Donax TX fluid is recommended for my transmission. Answer was yes, as it's ATF so that's a big save.

Anyone else used this fluid from Shell for their transmissions? I have sent an email to ZF AG and will come back with what they said.

[wjam]

That's interesting... I am pretty sure ATF fluid is ATF fluid providing it meets the requirements set down by ZF for their gearbox..

I am interested to see the opinion of others as well as the ZF response.

WJAM

[TheMatador]

Yes, interested to hear the outcome of that. My local transmission specialist was of the same opinion and use Texaco fully synth ATF for everything. They said that they'd refilled the bigger HP26 in Range Rovers/BMW330d with the stuff and it was fine - friction coefficients didn't need adjusting or anything.

[wjam]

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find this is all a load of marketing...

if it's good enough for the beemers and range rovers it's certainly good enough for the audi...

In my book anyway

WJAM

[gianton]

I agree on the marketing thing, but better to be safe than sorry that is why I sent the email to ZF. Really anxious what they will reply.