Glow Plug Removal gone wrong...

[djl78]

Whilst changing glow plugs this morning i think i may have sheared one off or damaged the thread.It continues to turn fairly loosely but will neither undo or tighten.
This is looking frighteningly like a cylinder head off job.
Any ideas or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Allroad 2.5 TDI engine code AKE.

Thanks
d

[Peter D]

Are you sure you have not sheared the flats off the glowplug. what size and seach of socket did you use. Regards Peter

[djl78]

Hi Peter,
I used a 10mm deep socket.The flats look fine so i'm thinking it may be the thread.
Thanks

[Peter D]

Do not start the car until you know what has happened. The plug could be ejected at considerable speed. Regards Peter

[djl78]

Thanks for info.I wasn't going to start the car just in case a section of plug has broken off.
There is a opening in the side of the cylinder casting so i'll see if i can get something in to lever whilst unscrewing.
Thanks again peter

[Peter D]

Does the top of plug rotate. There is a small undercut on the top the the treaded section and it may have sheared. Regards Peter

[djl78]

I've just had another look and that appears to be the problem.The centre of the plug is not rotating but the flats are so i think you're right.
Options now i guess are cylinder head off,remove plug and insert a helicoil provided there is no more damage.
Is there anything i should be aware of whilst removing head?I have some manuals which are quite detailed.

Thanks
d

[Peter D]

Ring a deisel specialist or an Audi Independant and explain to them. They made have some ideas. First thing to do is use a wrap of insulation tape over lapping the end of the socket, ease it over the fractured part and list up the hex part and remove. Do this before you apply Plus Gas to soak the threads. You may be lucky and the thread may just let go. Speak to a specialist or indi now as they may be closing as it is Saturday. Regards Peter

[djl78]

Thanks Peter i'll do that.

[cazyp]

Is there enough room to reverse tap the glow plug?

[Crasher]

I have never had this happen to me, yet, on a V6, only on a 1.9 PD. The failure of these glow plugs is why new 2.5TDI heads from VW come with them fitted, it stops people re-using them and this happening. Removing that glow plug even with the head off is going to be very difficult without destroying the thread, very specialised engineering shop work, possibly even spark erosion work and Helicoiling that thread is very difficult. I think what will have happened is that the threaded section has snapped off and the internals are still attached to both halves. On the one that I had to remove, I managed to get the internals out which left a hollow tube in the head, then I carefully drove in a splined extractor which gripped the case and allowed me to extract the remains, a big sigh of relief was breathed I can tell you! A tapering extractor may make matters worse by expanding the casing as it goes in, I used a parallel sided fluted extractor set. Removing the head on one of those engines is serious work.

[djl78]

Thanks Crasher.Any idea how much heads are for these engines just so i can prepare my better half for the worst case scenario?

[djl78]

Is there enough room to reverse tap the glow plug?
nope

[Peter D]

A deisel specialist may offer to remove the plug by drilling partly down the core and use a left handed extractor. There are even instructions with photos of how to do this on a Merc and others. Regards Peter

I was typing so had not seen Crashers post. I agree with Crasher the extractor is not to be a tapered type it must be the type the screws into a LH thead you have tapped and lock it off or the splined type as Crasher detailed

[djl78]

What's the best way of turning engine over by hand.Just want to check that it spins freely before i start it up.Glow plug has barely budged so i'm confident it won't fly out.
Thanks
d

[Peter D]

Crankshaft central bolt, don't rush it. Regards Peter

[djl78]

Thanks Peter,
Engine turns over fine so i fired her up but noticed remnants of wd40 bubbling away around base of glow plug so it's not really drivable.
That was just at idle so will no doubt be a lot worse at higher compression.
Probably ok for the 3 miles to garage on monday......
Why is it the simplest of jobs always cause the most headaches???:aargh4:

[Peter D]

I suggested Plus Gas Not WD40, completely different a couple of days with Plus Gas may save the day. WD40 just does not crack it. As the WD is bubbling then the threaded part may not be that seized. Soak it over night in Plus Gas. and tomorrow start the car with that plug diconnected, let rhe engine idle for 5 minutes then shut it down. Obtain a length of siff rubber lube that will fit down and firmly over the top of the plug and try and remove the plug by wriggling and turning, the Plus Gas and the thermal warm up may have cracked the bond and the plug may come. Even if you still take it to a garage they will thank you for soaking it in Plus Gas. Good Luck. Regards Peter

[zollaf]

good luck, whatever you decide to do. a hot engine may give you better results, as the head will expand ever so slightly. wurth do a superb spray, called rost off plus. it actually freezes the stuck thingy, to crack the joint. a hot engine, then a squirt of this on there to contract the plug, may or may not help.

[Crasher]

You mean Rost Off Ice

http://www.wurth.co.uk/catalogue/pdfs/UK-CD_06_0607.pdf (http://www.wurth.co.uk/catalogue/pdfs/UK-CD_06_0607.pdf)


Not Rost Off Plus

http://www.wurth.co.uk/catalogue/pdfs/UK-CD_06_0605.pdf (http://www.wurth.co.uk/catalogue/pdfs/UK-CD_06_0605.pdf)

Both seriously excellent products and the only ones I use.

[STEWY L]

Thanks Peter,
Engine turns over fine so i fired her up but noticed remnants of wd40 bubbling away around base of glow plug so it's not really drivable.
That was just at idle so will no doubt be a lot worse at higher compression.
Probably ok for the 3 miles to garage on monday......
Why is it the simplest of jobs always cause the most headaches???:aargh4:
the bubbles you are seeing are simply caused by the vibration of the engine. if compression gasses were coming up the thread,then you would not have any wd40 there,because,either it would have ran down the thread before you started the engine,or the compression gasses coming up would have evaporated it,rather than bubbling through it.
by the way, the compression ratio is fixed.it does not change with speed or revs.
my advice would be to follow crashers advice,
good luck,and best regards,
stewy.

[Peter D]

The compression ratio, non combustion, may be fixed but the max cylinder pressure is not, fuel plus turbo pressure increases the pressure considerably. The bubbles may be real. Regards Peter

[Peter D]

Crasher. Yep it is good stuff. I first came across it in the aircraft industry but the OP can not buy it in Halfords on a Saturday late afternoon. Regards Peter

[Crasher]

Crasher. Yep it is good stuff. I first came across it in the aircraft industry but the OP can not buy it in Halfords on a Saturday late afternoon. Regards Peter

I didn’t suggest you could, I was just pointing out to Zollaf the name of the product he mentioned. It is a pity that Würth products are not freely available.

[STEWY L]

The compression ratio, non combustion, may be fixed but the max cylinder pressure is not, fuel plus turbo pressure increases the pressure considerably. The bubbles may be real. Regards Peter
if you were getting combustion gasses through that thread you would hear it,and any liquid that was there would be blown off.
my thoughts,
stewy.

[Peter D]

Crasher. I was not suggesting you could buy it in Halfords but the OP could go and get some Plus Gas.
Stewy, it depends on how much gas is leaking.

Regards Peter

[djl78]

if you were getting combustion gasses through that thread you would hear it,and any liquid that was there would be blown off.
my thoughts,
stewy.

There is only a small amount of gas escaping so you can't hear it over the noise of the engine.
I'm sure the amount of gas escaping would increase if i drove the car.
regards
d

[djl78]

Update:
I've removed the r/h & front sections of the inlet manifold to gain more access and have now managed to extract the electrode portion of the glow plug.
It had sheared just below the nut as Peter d suggested so all that remains within the head is the hollow body of the plug.
I've applied some more penetrant that i got from my neighbour and am now off out to see if i can get some plus gas,don't think i'll have much luck til tomorrow though.
It's not currently at the top of my priorities at the mo considering the circumstances but having removed the inlet manifold there appears to be a fair bit of gunk lining the interior walls of the inlet manifold that could do with cleaning.
Thanks for all the help so far.Will try and take a pic later to post on forum.
Regards
d

[STEWY L]

thanks for the update d.
good luck with it,
stewy.

[Peter D]

Measure the diameter of the hole that is left ( use the shank of drills to fine the size.) and obtain a splined extractor that can be tapped in and used to remove the glowplug. Wrap a peice of tape around the extractor so you know how far you have tapped it in. If you go too far you may snap the tip of the glow plug off and drop it in the cylinder. PM Crasher, he may recall the size of extractor he used. Regards Peter

[djl78]

UPDATE :
Glow plug is removed and new one fitted.Car is up and running again.....yipee.
Local engine machining specialist carried out the work and managed to remove the old glow plug without removing the cylinder head.
He reckoned that somebody had had them out in the past and over torqued on refitment.
Company is called Maynard and i'd highly recommend.
Thanks to all on the forum for help and advice.
:beerchug:
djl

[Peter D]

Excellent. Regards Peter

[zollaf]

You mean Rost Off Ice

http://www.wurth.co.uk/catalogue/pdfs/UK-CD_06_0607.pdf (http://www.wurth.co.uk/catalogue/pdfs/UK-CD_06_0607.pdf)


Not Rost Off Plus

http://www.wurth.co.uk/catalogue/pdfs/UK-CD_06_0605.pdf (http://www.wurth.co.uk/catalogue/pdfs/UK-CD_06_0605.pdf)

Both seriously excellent products and the only ones I use.

well spotted, i did mean the ice. although, i think the plus has the advantage. the first time i tried this was about 10 years ago whilst working in a landrover garage. the wurth salesman came round trying to sell the stuff. i tried it on a bolt id been trying to undo for ages. given it gas, wd40 etc with no joy. hit it with rost off plus, waited 10 minutes, it came undone. amazing stuff:approve:.

[Airbus]

UPDATE :
Glow plug is removed and new one fitted.Car is up and running again.....yipee.
Local engine machining specialist carried out the work and managed to remove the old glow plug without removing the cylinder head.
He reckoned that somebody had had them out in the past and over torqued on refitment.
Company is called Maynard and i'd highly recommend.
Thanks to all on the forum for help and advice.
:beerchug:
djl

Hi there, glad you sorted your problem.

Looks like I have the exact same problem with where my glow plug has broken in the same place. Where is the company you used located?

I really need some help with this as I am a little scared to try on my own as I am by no means an engine expert.

I am located in Manchester but can travel to anyone that knows what they're doing.

I have enclosed pictures that show the problem. Thanks.

http://www.zoo.co.uk/%7Eadam/beru_close.jpg
http://www.zoo.co.uk/%7Eadam/beru_all.jpg

[djl78]

I'm in Gloucestershire and used a local company called Maynards which is probably too far away for you.I'm sure a good local indy or engine specialists should be able to help you
There is probably no harm in trying to break off the upper portion of the plug by twisting the end of the electrode.All that should be left then is the glow plug body.Then soak it in some Plus Gas or similar,this will help eventual extraction whether you do it yourself or not.
regards
djl

[Crasher]

When this happened to me on a 1.9 PD TDI is pulled out the broken top section with grips and then used a tap in spline extractor to remove the outer core.

[Airbus]

I'm in Gloucestershire and used a local company called Maynards which is probably too far away for you.I'm sure a good local indy or engine specialists should be able to help you
There is probably no harm in trying to break off the upper portion of the plug by twisting the end of the electrode.All that should be left then is the glow plug body.Then soak it in some Plus Gas or similar,this will help eventual extraction whether you do it yourself or not.
regards
djl

Thanks for the reply. It is a bit too far for me, but thanks for the info'.

I will probably have a go at this on my next days off providing I can get all the right tools. Would this sort of extractor used to get the plug out? I have these to hand but someone recommended a fluted extractor. I assume these are not fluted?
http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/2/0/2/6/5/3/webimg/102291744_tp.jpg

Would anyone happen to know a good/reputable engine specialist in the North West that it would be worth taking the car to? I'd much rather take the vehicle to someone that will treat my car with the respect than take it anywhere.

Thanks.

[cazyp]

If nobody replies have a ring round - Yellow Pages - for a price. Remember you'll only get one go with an extractor..!

[Airbus]

Remember you'll only get one go with an extractor..!

I knoe, that's why I am treading very cautiously before I do anything. Fluted or not, that is the question :1zhelp:

[Airbus]

When this happened to me on a 1.9 PD TDI is pulled out the broken top section with grips and then used a tap in spline extractor to remove the outer core.

Hey, mine is a 1.9 PD TDI. You used a spline extractor tapping it in first inside the outer core. Basically hammer job then turn anti-clockwise? I think that would end in certain death if I did that. Do you live around Manchester :beerchug:

[cazyp]

I knoe, that's why I am treading very cautiously before I do anything. Fluted or not, that is the question :1zhelp:

NO disrespect intended at ALL - but I would say don't try it. Fluted or not. PAY to have it done.

[Airbus]

NO disrespect intended at ALL - but I would say don't try it. Fluted or not. PAY to have it done.

I fully understand where you're coming from. It could go two ways if I do it, and if it goes the wrong way whilst I am at home on the drive I am basically #$%^& unless someone can recommend a good mobile engine mechanic in my part of the world (North West). Either that or I take it down to a good diesel specialist.

If anyone knows of a reputable specialist anywhere in the North West, details would be appreciated. Otherwise it may be the Yellow Pages or just chancing the go it alone strategy (I know, very risky).

Thanks.

[paul b]

Hi Airbus

I highly recommend Princess Engineering in Levenshulme, next to the swimming baths. Ask for Ronnie.

Do you have the head off already?

[Airbus]

Hi Paul B


Hi Airbus

I highly recommend Princess Engineering in Levenshulme, next to the swimming baths. Ask for Ronnie.


Excellent. You used them before? What did they do for you? Did they take good care of your car (probably the most important to me).



Do you have the head off already?
I haven't touched anything yet otherwise it may end in further tears.:Blush2:

Thanks.

[paul b]

Hi Paul B



Excellent. You used them before? What did they do for you? Did they take good care of your car (probably the most important to me).


I haven't touched anything yet otherwise it may end in further tears.:Blush2:

Thanks.
Yes I've used him many times over the years. I've known him at least 25 years, he'll do a good job for you. Mention Paul Bateman and he'll know me. ;)

I've used Princess Engineering mainly for re-conditioning of engine parts, things like head skims, re-bores, crank grinds etc. Also used him for supplies of engine parts.

Its next door to the baths, on Barlow Road.

[Airbus]

Yes I've used him many times over the years. I've known him at least 25 years, he'll do a good job for you. Mention Paul Bateman and he'll know me. ;)

I've used Princess Engineering mainly for re-conditioning of engine parts, things like head skims, re-bores, crank grinds etc. Also used him for supplies of engine parts.

Its next door to the baths, on Barlow Road.

This sounds like just the ticket. I will pop down to him on Thursday and let you all know how I get on. Thanks very much!

[paul b]

This sounds like just the ticket. I will pop down to him on Thursday and let you all know how I get on. Thanks very much!
No problem.

It doesn't look like much of a place, but they are fantastic.

The Skoda might end up there sometime soon anyway, looks like in the past some numpty has over tightened the sump plug. :aargh4:

[Crasher]

Not tapered extractors, all they do is expand the shell and lock it tight. I used a straight fluted extractor set from Skykes Pickavant such as their kit 01820000

[Airbus]

Not tapered extractors, all they do is expand the shell and lock it tight. I used a straight fluted extractor set from Skykes Pickavant such as their kit 01820000

The ones in the picture I posted are tapered right? I did a search for fluted extractors and they look a bit tapered.. I am not very technical in this regard :-)

[Airbus]

No problem.

It doesn't look like much of a place, but they are fantastic.


Cool, thanks Paul.

I guess it won't harm anything if I break the nipple of the main body right? Like the electrode at the bottom won't fall into the chamber from doing that alone? I want to see if an external nut extractor might get a grip on the little thread showing (very slim chance). I am going down the path of 'if that doesn't work, go and see Ronnie rather than drill inside the shaft...'



The Skoda might end up there sometime soon anyway, looks like in the past some numpty has over tightened the sump plug. :aargh4:
That's why I have always done my own servicing. :o I know though when to stop and know that something is beyond my experience....sometimes :approve:

[Crasher]

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd20/Crasher1964/SykesPickavantflutedextrators.jpg

[Airbus]

Thanks for the image. I see I don't have them parrallel type extractors.

[paul b]

Cool, thanks Paul.

I guess it won't harm anything if I break the nipple of the main body right? Like the electrode at the bottom won't fall into the chamber from doing that alone? I want to see if an external nut extractor might get a grip on the little thread showing (very slim chance). I am going down the path of 'if that doesn't work, go and see Ronnie rather than drill inside the shaft...'


That's why I have always done my own servicing. :o I know though when to stop and know that something is beyond my experience....sometimes :approve:
I'd ring Ronnie first and make sure he can do the job.

But I'd also have a go at getting the plug out. Maybe snap the top bit off, then get a good quality easy-out from (Brian) Pope's on Manchester Road (Heaton Chapel I think). I'd buy the best quality one that won't snap, it could cost as much as £30. He'll know exactly what you want.

Best of luck, it's a nightmare of a job.

[Airbus]

I'd ring Ronnie first and make sure he can do the job.

But I'd also have a go at getting the plug out. Maybe snap the top bit off, then get a good quality easy-out from (Brian) Pope's on Manchester Road (Heaton Chapel I think). I'd buy the best quality one that won't snap, it could cost as much as £30. He'll know exactly what you want.

Best of luck, it's a nightmare of a job.

I'll give Ronnie a call soon, thanks Paul. I do have an easy out type device, but it looks like I need a fluted type extractor as Crasher showed? I will let you know how I get on. Thanks!

[paul b]

I'll give Ronnie a call soon, thanks Paul. I do have an easy out type device, but it looks like I need a fluted type extractor as Crasher showed? I will let you know how I get on. Thanks!
Yeah, the extractor looks like it'll do the trick, but I use the easy-outs.

If you drill the body of the plug out, be careful you don't drill all the way though... I'd get a new plug first so you know how far you should drill into it.

Good quality drill bit, maybe Plattingham, because the darn plug will be rock hard.

I'm sure you know all the above... :Blush:

[Airbus]

I'd ring Ronnie first and make sure he can do the job.

I gave Ronnie a call today. Helpful guy, although he doesn't do broken glow plugs.

He did put me in touch with a guy called Brian though? He says he will look at it on Thursday. I need to give him a call then. Have you dealt with Brian before?

[paul b]

I gave Ronnie a call today. Helpful guy, although he doesn't do broken glow plugs.

He did put me in touch with a guy called Brian though? He says he will look at it on Thursday. I need to give him a call then. Have you dealt with Brian before?
Sorry, nope I haven't.

I'd give him a go though, I'm sure Ronnie wouldn't put you through to a muppet if you get what I mean. ;)

[Airbus]

Sorry, nope I haven't.

I'd give him a go though, I'm sure Ronnie wouldn't put you through to a muppet if you get what I mean. ;)

OK, thanks for the lead though. I just hope it gets sorted soon. Then I can get back to the mind of fitting a handsfree kit etc :D

[Airbus]

Just an update to my predicament. Tried drilling though an old plug to about 1cm, the lower electrode didn't fall out. On this basis, drilled a small hole in the stuck plug, used an extractor....and it didn't go according to plan.

The plug turned counter-clockwise after a bit of an effort, and now it just turns freely without coming out of the block. So at least partially stripped thread in the block/plug! And the plug won't pull out. So it will mean block out now I guess. :mad: Oh well, I tried.

[Peter D]

You mean head off, not block out. Regards Peter

[Airbus]

You mean head off, not block out. Regards Peter
That's what I meant :Blush2:

[Airbus]

I have been quoted £370 by a mobile mechanic for head removal, remove plug, insert new thread, head fitment. Does this sound reasonable?

[cazyp]

Doesn't sound a BAD price.

[Crasher]

Way too cheap, the parts would cost that much such as cam belt kit, water pump, head gasket, glow plugs, head bolts, coolant, oil and filter etc.

[cazyp]

Way too cheap, the parts would cost that much such as cam belt kit, water pump, head gasket, glow plugs, head bolts, coolant, oil and filter etc.

Sounds like the MM is not intending to fit a new cambelt/waterpump etc though...

[paul b]

Sounds like the MM is not intending to fit a new cambelt/waterpump etc though...
Which is damn right dangerous!

The price quoted would do the cambelt job alone, never mind re-threading the head etc.

Anytime the head is off the cambelt must be replaced, its the reason the belt went on my Octavia, its proof that once a belt has stretched it must never be re-applied to a vehicle.

[cazyp]

Which is damn right dangerous!

The price quoted would do the cambelt job alone, never mind re-threading the head etc.

Anytime the head is off the cambelt must be replaced, its the reason the belt went on my Octavia, its proof that once a belt has stretched it must never be re-applied to a vehicle.

Yep. Thats what I meant!

[paul b]

Yep. Thats what I meant!
I knew that's what you mean cazyp, its just for the benefit of the poster, Airbus. :)

[Airbus]

Thanks for the info' guys. I will see what this MM says when he visits at the end of the week. I will also mention the timing belt to him.

If only one of you experienced people could do the job, then I would know what I would be getting for my money! I am in Stockport by the way.:beerchug:

[tornadored7]

Just as a general note when dealing with Glow plugs;

What are the best practices for removing glow plugs from a PD TDI engine, to avoid them shearing/siezing upon removal ?

i.e.


Would it be beneficial to remove the GPs when then engine is fully warmed up ?
Is it recommended to always apply certain sprays such as Rost Off Ice, WD 40, Plus Gas and allowing some time to soak in ?
I take it that once a fitted glow plug has been removed, it should NOT be reinstalled in order to avoid future shearing ?

TR7

[Crasher]

I do them hot or cold. I clean around the glow plug with brake cleaner and then use an air line to blow dirt away. I spray Würth Rost Off around them and then blow it away and spray some more on. Then I undo them keeping my fingers crossed that they don’t snap. I never ever under any circumstances re-install a glow plug that has been fitted. I always torque them to the recommended setting which is 15Nm if my memory isn’t too addled by paint fumes!

[tornadored7]

Crasher,

Excellent, thanks for the information.

I've changed glow plugs previously on a warm 1Z engine with much trepidation, having pre-soaked the plugs' perimeter in WD40 for 15 minutes, and as you suggested cleared of any dirt that may fall into the engine.

My main concern was that either the plug would shear upon removal, or else that the plug cross threads upon installation and damages the thread on the cylinder head :confused:.



... I spray Würth Rost Off around them and then blow it away and spray some more on ...

Cross referencing your previous post (http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=298810&postcount=20), I take it that is Rost Off Ice, not Rost Off Plus ?
I believe that ECP sell Würth products, (I wonder if their advertising slogan is ... "becuase your car's Würth it" :o)

So the moral of the story is NEVER re-use;

Timing Belts (thanks Paul_B)
Glow Plugs (thanks Crasher)


Regards,
TR7

[Crasher]

No, it is Rost Off Plus, I find Rost Off Ice virtually useless. I have only had one glow plug shear off in my workshops in 25 years and that was by one of my mechanics re-fitting a used one on an 8E A4 with and AVF engine. I managed to get it out but no way do I want to go down that road again.