1990 Mk2 Golf GTI 1.8 8v PB Just wont start :(

[marneya]

Morning All!
Hoping to get some advice please on where to troubleshoot.
Car is a MK2 Golf GTI H reg (1990), 1.8 8v, PB Engine, (Hazard switch on Steering column) and was running just fine until this issue about 4 weeks ago (car wa actually idling then all of a sudden, cut out and hasn't started since.
Starter motor turns but zero fire, not even a splutter, just starter motor.

* Petrol is definitely coming through (plenty comes out of the fuel line when cranking)
* New spark plugs, leads and coil
* ICU changed (to a used one)
* Power confirmed to be going through to ICU and ECU
* Power confirmed to be going through to the hall sender
* Not getting a massive spark from the central HT lead
* Did get an electric shock when holding HT leads to engine block and cranking
* Unless I'm testing it incorrectly, not getting power to the coil (2 blacks and 2 reds going to the coil)
* Connected new coil directly to battery, stage 2 lights come on in the dash when doing this and there is an actuator type sound for a couple of seconds when connecting coil directly to battery
* When bridging the 2 pins on relay, can hear the same actuator type noise from above - also get the same noise when disconnecting the plug from the back of the ignition switch and reconnecting

Any ideas on where to poke about next step would be hugely appreciated!
Thanks all

[Crasher]

The buzzing is from the idler stabiliser valve. From your description I would say the distributor Hall sender has failed, these are a bit hard to obtain at the moment, we had an 89 PB a few months ago which had a new aftermarket dizzy the Hall sender was terrible, as the company had copied the late design I managed to get a new Bosch sender…

https://flic.kr/p/2m668Lv
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51253412073_24b130f6ed_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2m668Lv)

The original Bosch coils and Telefunken branded amplifiers are extremely reliable, I would rather use 30 year old original than a pattern aftermarket part. ECU failure was a problem but that tended only to show itself as a constantly running fuel pump when the ignition was turned on, it also cracked open the injectors and poured fuel into the engine; I know two instances where this caused a workshop fire. The one we had in was the earlier model with no ECU relay, knowing the hazard switch is on the column shows you have the later fuse box, at position 3 (upper main row, third from the left) is the ECU power relay (the fuel pump is lower right, position 10), and has the “control group” number 32 printed on top; is this black made in the Philippines or grey made in Germany or Portugal? The present but poor spark could be a clue, make sure the battery to body to gearbox upper bolt earth connection is clean, a quick test is a jump lead from the battery to the head?

[marneya]

Morning Crasher,
Thank you so much for your reply mate, much appreciated.
I'll try a jump lead today from neg terminal on the battery to the head.
The relay is definitely 32 but cant remember if it was black or grey...will check shortly.

I'll also start having a hunt for a new dizzy..heritage parts have one but its for a 16v and doesn't list the PB engine...I could have sworn they had one a couple of weeks ago though!
Ignition Distributor for 16V Engine | Heritage Parts Centre UK (https://www.heritagepartscentre.com/uk/051905237x-ignition-distributor-for-16v-engine.html)

they have one for a 1.8 but also doesnt list the PB engine:
Distributor for 1.8 | Heritage Parts Centre UK (https://www.heritagepartscentre.com/uk/050905205ah-distributor-for-1-8.html)



Thanks again mate.

[Crasher]

The part number for the last production fitted dizzy was 037 905 205 K and the genuine replacement 037 905 237 X for exchange but is now obsolete, I have a feeling the one I had a struggle with the owner had bought from Heritage, I would rather find an original 205 K and fit a new Bosch sender. When I get back to work (planning on a week tomorrow if my surgeon says OK on Wednesday) I will email you an article I wrote for the now defunct The Golf magazine about looking after the PB decades ago, which I keep revising.

[marneya]

ah you are a true genleman crasher! If I can help you out with anything IT related, let me know please mate, it would be my pleasure!

[mickeybo]

The spark you should have at high tension lead end should be a bright blue 1 not reddish in colour. bridgeing out relay 2 terminals do not tell you a lot can you post up your engine code or reg no

[marneya]

Hey Mickey,
Reg is H292 YUU... cheers!
Hey Crasher, just checked the relay and it is black with Made in Germany written on it with part number 357 906 381.
Tried jumping from neg terminal on battery to head, no change.
Just a wee question, I noticed on the opposite side of the hall sender on the dizzy, there is a clip for an electrical wire but nothing attached. Then again, there was nothing attached when the car was running either :)
Thank you gents!

Some pics of my dizzy in case your expert eyes see something amiss!

38332383333833438335

[Crasher]

The tag is for when a dizzy cap metal screen is fitted. That relay is still old, find the date marking on it. Order a new one from Heritage. Have you tried push/bump starting it? That rotor arm isn’t very good.

[marneya]

Thanks mate, will order a new rotor arm.
Was just having a tinkle with it and there is definitely not a spark coming from the coil when holding the HT to the head..nothing at all.
Put a multimeter directly into one of the positive (black) leads while its not attached to the coil and one on the negative (red) and get 12v.
Put the multimeter on to both black leads while not attached to the coil and got 12v!
Put the multimeter on one of the positve leads and one of the negative then attached the positive to the coil...as soon as the lead goes onto the connector, 12v disappear to 0.
Then touch the body of the coil or the head with the negative from the multimeter and back to 12v.
Basically, what I'm saying is:
* when the positive/negative from multimeter are attached to the coil, I get 0v
* when the leads are off the coil, I get 12v.
* when a positive from the multimeter is connected to the coil and negative touched either on the body of the coil or head, I get 12v

This has me fairly and squarely confused :)

[marneya]

Afternoon gents,
My pains continue :(
* I've had the distributor rebuilt from Ignition Car Parts in Basildon (new Hall Sender etc, cap, arm etc).
* New ICU fitted and new relays (ECU, Fuel Pump).
* New coil (HT leads are about 9 months old and are Bosch).
* 12V going to ICU, ECU and Hall Sender.
* New ignition switch (not connected to the back of the ignition barrel but using a flathead screw driver to "turn the ignition".
* When going to stage 1 on ignition, rev needle jumps and all lights are on the dash).
* Good earth from battery to chassis to gearbox mount.
* Checked every single fuse and replaced any that looked worn.
* Ran earth straight from battery to coil
* Definitely fuel coming through - after a few minutes of cranking you can smell petrol and I popped off the fuel hose to the injectors and petrol is gushing out.
Still no damn spark!
I connected the hall sender plug to a new distributor and rotated the shaft by hand; can hear the clicks when it hits the points but still no spark from the coil pack.
Would replacing the ECU be the next step?
If anyone could give me some pointers on where to look next, I would be eternally grateful!
Cheers!

[Crasher]

When you spin the dizzy, you should get four sparks per revolution on the king lead.

[marneya]

Hi Crasher, yes indeed, that's my problem...no spark at all.... any ideas why?

[Crasher]

Clicks when it hits the points? Did I send you my article on the PB?

[marneya]

It does click mate and you hear the injectors too.. but still no spark coming from the HT lead off the coil.
You didn't send me the article mate, greatly appreciated if you could.
Cheers!

[Crasher]

If you here the injectors click and the fuel pump fire up whilst you rotate the dizzy that means the ECU is seeing the hall sender pulse and responding accordingly BUT it may not be sending out the ignition amplifier signal on the green wire from pin 25 of the ECU to pin 6 of the amplifier. Disconnect black power feed wire to terminal 15 of the coil (there are two black wires, one from the fuse box with a line 15 ignition on power and the other powers the amplifier) and with a HT lead set about 5mm from an earth, tickle the power onto the terminal and you should get a crackle of sparks.

[marneya]

Hey Crasher,
So with the car now...i had one spark plug out and when flexing the green wire from the ICU, all of a sudden it started to spark!
I've cut the green wire and put a probe on the ICU end, while cranking and constantly tapping the negative button on the probe, the car started to fire.3840038401

[marneya]

Do you know what that green wire does and is it coming from the ECU?
Cheers!

[marneya]

Problem finally solved!
It was the ECU..grabbed one on ebay yesterday and fitted today.
On the plus side, my Golf now has a rebuilt distributor, new TCH, new relays, new ignition switch and excellent grounds everywhere.
Thanks to all for your replies and hopefully this will help some other poor soul in the future.

Cheers all, Merry Xmas and Happy New Year.