Bluefin

[Tripletrouble]

Has anyone on the forum tried a Bluefin on their car?
I used one many years ago on a Mondeo ST and was very happy with it.
I am drawn to the fact that I can remove the tune for servicing work (Supechips claim it is 100% undetectable when removed).
My only other concern is will the DSG box be OK with the increased torque? They claim 400nm (up 62nm)

Bluefin FAQs (http://www.mybluefin.co.uk/s/faq-s)

[Silane]

AFAIK Audi can detect all remaps due to the TD1 flag, so if you have a warranty I wouldn't recommend it. If you've no warranty go for it, any review I've read was great.
I've been thinking of doing it myself, but always chicken out because it's a bit pricey, and I'm worried about damaging something.

[Tripletrouble]

The reason it attracted me was the fact the car is still under warranty and the reversibility of the tune.
May have to give it some more thought if it flags up in the ECU.

[Silane]

Yeah, the remap is reversible but the TD1 flag is not, except when Audi complete the software update. It won't completely void the warranty, the fault would have to be connected to the modification, but it's very easy to argue that an engine remap is responsible for most things that could break on the engine/drivetrain. Not worth it really.

[A6S]

It's gamble but bluefin/superchip offers a warranty if their remap buggers your car.

[Silane]

How much proof do you need to provide that the remap caused the problem though? It'd be hard to pin down I think. You'd either be trying to convince Audi that the remap didn't cause the problem, or convince bluefin that it did, either way it seems like hassle.

[A6S]

There's not many that offer a kind of indefinite warranty. Bluefin offers a warranty if Audi doesn't pay up and I think there's limits.
Abt and mtm have something similar. That's why these are pretty expensive compared some other tuning boxes/remaps.
It's the risk when you play about with something.
I've got a year or so left of warranty and I've been looking at options. Mtm is £1200 but there's a warranty as long as it's still under manufacturers warranty.
My biggest worry is the gearbox as the dsg isn't that strong compared to the zf boxes.

[Tripletrouble]

The gearbox was the second part of my question. Is it the same unit used in other, more powerful Audis?

[RhysoTDI]

Bluefin only offer the warranty as long as your car is still under the manufactures warranty. Any failures after your warranty has expired and you are on your own

It has to be a seriously bad remap to give you any engine troubles. Even then the engine has some levels of protection in order to help save itself

if you are worried about what a remap can do then don't bother. Just remember that things go wrong even without a remap so you may as well enjoy the extra performance and improved drivability it can offer you :)

[ukgroucho]

The gearbox was the second part of my question. Is it the same unit used in other, more powerful Audis?

I think it's a DL501 derivative of the s-Tronic so good for 600nM.

[MC09PJC]

hi...

you don't say which engine you have, but afaik the quattro has the dl501 or newer dl382-7q and the fwd has the dl382-7f. and then theres the ultra quattro dl382 which can shift between for and quattro.

B9 S Tronic vs. MK7 DSG - Page 3 - AudiWorld Forums (https://www.audiworld.com/forums/a4-b9-platform-discussion-212/b9-s-tronic-vs-mk7-dsg-2909260/page3/)

[Tripletrouble]

I have a 2L 2wd TDi

[A6S]

hi...

you don't say which engine you have, but afaik the quattro has the dl501 or newer dl382-7q and the fwd has the dl382-7f. and then theres the ultra quattro dl382 which can shift between for and quattro.

B9 S Tronic vs. MK7 DSG - Page 3 - AudiWorld Forums (https://www.audiworld.com/forums/a4-b9-platform-discussion-212/b9-s-tronic-vs-mk7-dsg-2909260/page3/)

How can you tell which box is in your car without looking at the box itself?
I have the 272. If it's the dl501 then factory torque already exceeds the 550nm max.

[NewAudi]

The S6 also uses the DSG and has 550Nm as standard.

As for warranty, I would seriously consider ABT as they work with Audi and covers your car when Audi does not. Certainly so in Germany but I suspect different markets have different rules. ABT is also hugely expensive.

As for trouble after a tune. Been there, done that. Had a 2011 F11 535d tuned. Main computer failed. Bmw refused to pay up. Cost me €3k! But I am ot convinced it was the tune as this particular car had so many issues I could fill an A4! Steering rack x2, leaking windows, rear box faulty x2, broken down twice (once before tune), slow and very thirsty (+30% on manufacturers figures)....tested, down on power but Bmw told me I was wrong etc etc etc. Never again!

But, as said above, if out of warranty go for it. If still in, consider your options carefully.

[playasyougo]

Hi,

I've had Bluefin installed on my 64 plate A6 Allroad 245PS model for 23months now. I went with Bluefin due to being able to remove the map and re-install as the car is still under Audi warranty.

I've towed with the car across Europe, taken it on the Nurburgring for 5 laps and generally given it a good thrash as most car enthusiasts do when it's safe to do so. Not once had a gearbox issue occur but the car did go into Audi and have the right front wheel bearing replaced under warranty so I removed the map and some VCDS settings, took it in for the work and then applied them all when I arrived home after collecting the car.

The Bluefin map increases were also confirmed when I took the car to a local garage with a chassis dyno and both power and torque were slightly higher than Superchips advised. However, varying dynos and conditions do have different readings.

All in, happy i chose Bluefin.

I had a cheaper map option applied to the wifes Honda CRV and the garage had to remove the ECU, re-solder bits and bobs 3 times as each previous run resulted in less than advertised results. This took a full day to perform so the garage lost out but they were true to their word of price and results to be gained so credit to them.

[A6S]

Hi,

I've had Bluefin installed on my 64 plate A6 Allroad 245PS model for 23months now. I went with Bluefin due to being able to remove the map and re-install as the car is still under Audi warranty.

I've towed with the car across Europe, taken it on the Nurburgring for 5 laps and generally given it a good thrash as most car enthusiasts do when it's safe to do so. Not once had a gearbox issue occur but the car did go into Audi and have the right front wheel bearing replaced under warranty so I removed the map and some VCDS settings, took it in for the work and then applied them all when I arrived home after collecting the car.

The Bluefin map increases were also confirmed when I took the car to a local garage with a chassis dyno and both power and torque were slightly higher than Superchips advised. However, varying dynos and conditions do have different readings.

All in, happy i chose Bluefin.

I had a cheaper map option applied to the wifes Honda CRV and the garage had to remove the ECU, re-solder bits and bobs 3 times as each previous run resulted in less than advertised results. This took a full day to perform so the garage lost out but they were true to their word of price and results to be gained so credit to them.

What power/torque did your 245 make?
Particularly interested in the torque figure as that the only thing that matter and the thing that will break the dsg box.
Been looking at this for a while for my 272, bluefin was one of my choices but the 272 is still in development, BSR and abt was the others I've been looking at. Abt is the most expensive one but has a similar warranty to bluefin.

[playasyougo]

I don't have the figures to hand but I remember both the power and torque being between 5 and 10 of the stated figures on Superchips page. Checking just now it shows an increase of 45hp (287hp total) and 142nm (642nm total or 473lb ft)

[fest0r]

A6S, I personally wouldn’t risk it unless there was some way to only raise the bhp. Before you even think about it I would get a session on a dyno to get a rough idea what you have already. It would also stop me pestering you to get it done :D I get the impression from reviews and articles that Audi are extremely conservative when providing output stats and 0-60 times etc. I just hope they do the same with the S-Tronic as the 245 box is only Rated to 600nm.

Playasyougo, did you get a dyno done when the car was standard?

[playasyougo]

Yes, the car had 3 power runs in total. 1 to check the standard figures which were all good and the other 2 were power runs with Bluefin applied and the average figures taken I beleive. The dyno operator commented that both standard and Bluefin were running healthy.

I've also read about the box ratings and I would take their rating with a pinch of salt. I work in motorsport and I've see many sequential gearboxes rated for x amount of kilometres and x amount of torque but most, if not all, well exceed it and then some.

The only thing I will do with my Audi is the same as the race cars and that's change the fluid as often as possible.

[fest0r]

When you say they were all good, do you mean they were at the official figures?

[playasyougo]

When you say they were all good, do you mean they were at the official figures?

Yes, give or take a few single digits.

[A6S]

A6S, I personally wouldn’t risk it unless there was some way to only raise the bhp. Before you even think about it I would get a session on a dyno to get a rough idea what you have already. It would also stop me pestering you to get it done :D

The remap is the reason I want to head to the dyno😄

[fest0r]

You might be at (or over) the rating for the box already.

[A6S]

You might be at (or over) the rating for the box already.

The factory figures (580nm)are over already I think. Read a tech article saying the ob5 box is rated at 550nm at 9000rpm. Would think if it's already over the ob5 specs that Audi would have reinforced it somewhere😄
The thing is how often are you gonna be driving at max revs/power/full throttle? Majority of the time I will be cruising or trundling around town with the occasional sprited drive. So the majority of the time it won't even hit the factory peak figures let alone the remapped figures.
You would hope that in this digital age the box is smart enough to shut down if it's overheating or if it's not happy with something. Not sure what will break first, the clutch plates worn or the actual gears, neither is cheap.

[fest0r]

From what I remember, the 245/272 has the latest DL501 box… rated to a max of 600nm. I think the first version was 550nm… could easily be wrong though. I’ll have a look later if nobody can confirm.

[A6S]

the abt tune is rated at 640nm so less than 10% above the max 600.
My other thinking in the box strength is the A6 is rated to tow around 2 ton. Surely if I was to tow a 2 ton load on top of the 2 ton car that would put a crap load more stress on the gearbox/clutch plates than me tuning it to 640nm, even 700nm ,and giving it the welly now and again.
I could be wrong but I'm no engineer, it's all just numbers to me.

[fest0r]

Can’t really see anything official/definitive, but here are the ratings from the wiki:

Direct-shift gearbox - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-shift_gearbox#List_of_DSG_variants)

A few other sites list the DL501 as 440 ft lb (597nm).

33842

[A6S]

Can’t really see anything official/definitive, but here are the ratings from the wiki:

Direct-shift gearbox - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-shift_gearbox#List_of_DSG_variants)

A few other sites list the DL501 as 440 ft lb (597nm).

33842

Good find👍🏼
Better a find a dyno and get a run now.

[wildbore]

the abt tune is rated at 640nm so less than 10% above the max 600.
My other thinking in the box strength is the A6 is rated to tow around 2 ton. Surely if I was to tow a 2 ton load on top of the 2 ton car that would put a crap load more stress on the gearbox/clutch plates than me tuning it to 640nm, even 700nm ,and giving it the welly now and again.
I could be wrong but I'm no engineer, it's all just numbers to me.
I am afraid that you are right, you are no engineer! :p Regardless of the towing load, the maximum torque being fed through the box is dictated by the engine. It is input torque (from the engine) that will damage the'box. The maximum towing capacity is as more about tyres, suspension and brakes than engine power. My RS6 has only a marginally higher towing capacity than a 2.0 litre A6 - and that is despite bigger brakes, air suspension and 4WD.

Sure, towing stresses a 'box - it is likely to get much hotter (properly prepared towing cars have additional oil coolers for the gearbox - MB fit them when you spec a tow bar, but I don't know if Audi does), and the engine will be feeding more torque and power through the box than it would on an equivalent journey without the trailer, but the gearbox is fundamentally up to the task of towing.

Expanding out on the OP's topic of a tuning box, some gearboxes (including the ZF 8-speed - maybe other Audi boxes, too, I don't know) can measure and store data on when they are being over-torqued (by a tune, for example). This data can - and has been - used in warranty claims to reject a vehicle repair, so, if an owner fits a tuning box, they should be prepared for the possibility of a TD1 flag and / or a rejected warranty claim. I understand that the main ECU also shows trace data of where a tuning box has been fitted even after it has been removed for a dealer visit, but I have no direct experience of this through my work.

My personal feeling is you would have to be insane to fit a tuning box to a car that is under warranty now that ECUs are so sophisticated and knowing that vehicles with engine and gearbox failures are now examined minutely for signs of chipping by Audi, but I am aware cases of rejected warranty claims and TD1s being issued so I am naturally cautious.

[A6S]

I am afraid that you are right, you are no engineer! :p Regardless of the towing load, the maximum torque being fed through the box is dictated by the engine. It is input torque (from the engine) that will damage the'box. The maximum towing capacity is as more about tyres, suspension and brakes than engine power. My RS6 has only a marginally higher towing capacity than a 2.0 litre A6 - and that is despite bigger brakes, air suspension and 4WD.

Sure, towing stresses a 'box - it is likely to get much hotter (properly prepared towing cars have additional oil coolers for the gearbox - MB fit them when you spec a tow bar, but I don't know if Audi does), and the engine will be feeding more torque and power through the box than it would on an equivalent journey without the trailer, but the gearbox is fundamentally up to the task of towing.

Expanding out on the OP's topic of a tuning box, some gearboxes (including the ZF 8-speed - maybe other Audi boxes, too, I don't know) can measure and store data on when they are being over-torqued (by a tune, for example). This data can - and has been - used in warranty claims to reject a vehicle repair, so, if an owner fits a tuning box, they should be prepared for the possibility of a TD1 flag and / or a rejected warranty claim. I understand that the main ECU also shows trace data of where a tuning box has been fitted even after it has been removed for a dealer visit, but I have no direct experience of this through my work.

My personal feeling is you would have to be insane to fit a tuning box to a car that is under warranty now that ECUs are so sophisticated and knowing that vehicles with engine and gearbox failures are now examined minutely for signs of chipping by Audi, but I am aware cases of rejected warranty claims and TD1s being issued so I am naturally cautious.

I'm an accountant so it's all numbers to me, small numbers at that😄
But in a way the box should still handle it.
Me towing a big load constantly applying 580nm of torque for continuous long period like driving uphill over me applying 650 of torque for like 20-30 seconds a time for overtaking and lightly spirited drive can't be that much different on the stress on the box. Things like clutch packs/plates should be worse off with me towing than me doing spirited driving.
Warranty is up soon ish anyway so not too worried about that for now. Might have a new car before then but looking at options. Like many here we are car enthusiasts and like messing about with things.

[Herbie1213]

I ran a Revo stage 1 remap in my A7. Revo agents should remove and reinstall the software anytime car goes back to Audi, as was the case with mine. The remap was on the car for about 18 months before I sold it at 95k miles. Engine and gearbox were all perfect. Didn't dyno the car as I could feel the difference with the map. Fuel consumption marginally improved but it was the improved torque which was the most impressive. Last year we were late leaving spa after the GP thrashed it across Belgium and France with no problems what so ever. All I would say is do your research and go with a reputable company. Go for it.


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[A6S]

I ran a Revo stage 1 remap in my A7. Revo agents should remove and reinstall the software anytime car goes back to Audi, as was the case with mine. The remap was on the car for about 18 months before I sold it at 95k miles. Engine and gearbox were all perfect. Didn't dyno the car as I could feel the difference with the map. Fuel consumption marginally improved but it was the improved torque which was the most impressive. Last year we were late leaving spa after the GP thrashed it across Belgium and France with no problems what so ever. All I would say is do your research and go with a reputable company. Go for it.


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Which engine/gearbox combo do you have?

[Herbie1213]

It was 245 with dual clutch gearbox. Whilst I had it the gearbox oil was replaced every 38k and I went from long life servicing to annual servicing. Hope this helps. I'm now running A6 BE 17 ultra not quite the performance of the A7.


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[A6S]

Good to know the dsg box can handle a bit of abuse.
The ultra isn't a bad car. I do miss the fuel economy 😄 Used to get 700-750 + miles out of a tank and now the 272 does 500-550. Best I've had was 620 on a long drive.