B6 2.0 tdi Cr 140. EGR/IMF issue

[Majorlook]

Hi,
new member here so correct me if I've made any mistakes as to posting etc.

Yesterday I disconnected the battery and removed the EGR valve and the IMF/anti shudder valve and cleaned a ridiculous amount of thick black carbon from the EGR, I used carb cleaner to clean them both.

After cleaning and putting them back together and onto the car, I reconnected the battery and started the car and it was idling quite rough so I turned it off and after that it would turn over but wouldn't start, any ideas as to what could be the issue?

I have had an EML up for a while and stuck a generic code reader on it which came up with an Inlet manifold flap bank 1 error so I'm more leaning towards the IMF/anti shudder valve being faulty. Would this cause the rough idle and then cause it to not start now? Or am I more looking towards the EGR being faulty?

Any help appreciated

Thanks!

[Majorlook]

Also to add, if I do need to change the IMF/EGR will i then need to code the new one in using vag com or is it just a simple swap?

[DMitch16]

If you had a ridiculous amount of crap in your EGR and ASV then you would probaby have a fair amount in the inlet manifold itself especially if your manifold is plastic and has inlet manifold (swirl) flaps which could get stuck as a result. If the IMF system is vacuum operated you can test the vacuum and also the travel under vacuum of the actuator rod otherwise the only way to truly find out what condition it is in is to take off the inlet manifold and have a look. Some manifolds have a bolt inside the main inlet hole so be aware of this if you are going to take it off. If you can gain access to an ultrasonic cleaning machine it would be good as this process will remove all the built up soot in the manifold completely. Then if your flap rail, flaps and rail swivel pieces are in decent condition and now have correct movement just refit the manifold with a new inlet manifold gasket and torque correctly. Worn flap rail parts or broken flaps would mean replacing the inlet manifold which new are £400+. A decent used part might be a cheaper option.

[Majorlook]

Hi mitch,

I have the aluminium inlet manifold, the car was running before the cleaning so would that cause it to not run now?

I'll have a look at it later, thankfully I have family at ECP and they offer discount for the steelworks that I work at so I've managed to get a new ASV for £70 so I'll fit that and if that doesn't solve it then I'll have to start stripping the inlet manifold

[DMitch16]

I have the plastic and it's a shame manufacturers skimp on quality in the pursuit of less weight and more importantly to them less manufacturing costs. £400 for a bit of injection moulded plastic and a frail flap mechanism? What does it cost per unit to make I wonder in Hungary, Bulgaria, Malaysia? £10? That's the cost of R & D passed on to the consumer and their need to make huge profits!

[Majorlook]

It is a shame, there's too much plastic involved in cars now, I took the plastic cover off the ASV because apparently sometimes the teeth become damaged in it. Much to my surprise the main gear inside there is plastic so there's no wonder that the teeth snap especially if a piece of say carbon gets stuck in the valve, the teeth will just snap right off.

[DMitch16]

I clean the EGR, ASV, manifold and EGR pipe at the same time as the DSG oil change every 40,000 miles. Never had a problem with any of these since starting that regime at 100K with the exception of excess runner control where the vacuum actuation that pulls the flaps was allowing the plastic (again!) rotating swivel to go vertical causing it to stick momentarily under full throttle then snap closed under return spring pressure. Pushed a small piece of hose over the stop peg and it can't reach full vertical any more - no more runner control errors!

[Majorlook]

Ah, I don't think the EGR etc have ever been cleaned on mine and it's at 97000 miles, the EGR had a nice load of loose crunchy black soot on the exhaust side of the plunger and the ASV had a thick layer on parts that I had to scrape off.

Sometimes these small fixes are the best way such as your hose fix. I purchased the diesel geek intake manifold actuator fix as mine kept bringing up the error with it and it's just a little piece of machined aluminium that stops the actuator arm opening too far

[Majorlook]

UPDATE: well after being outside in the torrential rain yesterday determined to get the car running, I tried a multitude of different things and after a quick jump start the car lives!

The things I tried were:
Pushed the car in gear to make sure the engine turned over ok/dislodge any EGR soot debris that might have fallen in.
Manually turning the ASV in situ about 20 times, removed the hoses from the little vacuum actuator next to the EGR valve and sucked and blew on them.
Checked all the fuses, tried to start the car a few more times and it seemed to sound like it wanted to start but I noticed from the couple of days being turned over without starting I'd started to flatten the battery so after a quick jump start it kicked into life.

Once it started it smelled like it was running a bit rich and there was a bit of smoke but after a good booting down the local dual carriageway it felt amazing! Throttle response was great, turbo was boosting very well and acceleration seemed up too, cleaning the EGR and ASV has definitely given it a fresh breath of life.

I've not had chance to check the Mpg yet as I was just happy to get in it and give it a good booting to get rid of any remaining soot/carbon.

[DMitch16]

That's promising! You can also try to manual actuate the turbo vanes every so often by working the actuator lever up and down vigorously from time to time to prevent carbon build up which leads to a sticky vane mechanism and boost faults. I took mine apart and liberally coated the actuator ring inside with copper antiseize.

[Majorlook]

I'll have to have a go at that, and also great idea with the anti-seize. I've always wondered how many other components could be maintained to prolong their life such as the electric rear calipers etc

[DMitch16]

A lot! Oil is important so a good VW 507 00 spec every time; Forget Long Life service intervals - not proven to work; DSG gear oil changes to VW spec every 40K without fail. Correct level is important. Renew manual gear box oil to spec every 3 to 5 years - no gearbox is "sealed for life" and even Mercedes Benz did a U Turn on their "sealed for life" boxes. Renew brake fluid to VW spec every 2 years. Working some parts like the turbo actuator vigorously can dislodge light carbon build up. Grease what can be greased, oil what can be oiled, clean what can be cleaned. I antiseize all new bolts where seizure corrosion is known especially bolts going through bush collars. Not all fixings can be lubricated as some are friction dependable - avoid these as it would be a safety issue e.g. wheel bolts, subframe bolts (nothing wrong with antiseizing shafts just make sure threads are dry). Use loc-tite where it was used before.

Rubber perishes if it is dry so a light grease, oil or wax every so often keeps rubber parts supple.

Finally don't be afraid to let them rip every so often a good VW engine sometimes gets better over time and needs to play!!

[RichardSEL]

Echo the above good advices :beerchug:
ATF and auto-box filter changes not restricted to DSG. Tiptronic too every 40k miles

Don't do trips in a hurry nowadays, except this weekend had to do Blackheath -->Leicester & back some 250miles.
This ol' '06MY tFSI 2.0L returned >43MPG on 95RON -- not bad with a load

... when they're good, they're very, very good...

[Majorlook]

Great advice guys, I'm relatively new to VW and also relatively new to working on cars too, I'm actually an industrial electrician so I do come across a lot of parts that are on cars just on a much bigger scale, actuators, pressure/temp sensors etc so it's just getting my head around the car stuff.

On a side note, Richard I see you have the power-fold mirrors, I've always wondered about these because I have the 2009 B6 passat highline model and it doesn't have these, how hard is it to fit them do you know? I don't even think mine fold in properly because it seems to take a lot of effort to push them so I've never tried with fear of breaking something.

[RichardSEL]

Yes, I left mine out in a busy and narrow commuter road too. Until neighbour with BMW got his smacked off. However ours as least will, if hit, smack back the other way. If you hand fold yours they will eventually go in towards the windows alright.

There's no Auto-fold for mirrors for a B6 -- you have to operate the drivers' door mirror toggle. You have to already have Auto-dimming reverse mirror as a mininum coz the wiring's there then -- when you get a set, complete with the replacement toggle switch, controllers, and the motorised mirrors themselves, you'll get a drivers' side that also has Auto-dim on it, recognisable by a grey/blue area about ¼" around the mirror's edge. This was a factory-fitted B6 optional extra in Weather Pack 1 or 2

I picked up my parts from a scrapper -- they are out there, you just have to be a bit OCD in searching every week to find where. More details in my help .doc. PM me an email address for return attach. Remind me what it's for

CC did have Auto-fold as an option with their 3c8 series of modules.

[hissinsid]

I clean the EGR, ASV, manifold and EGR pipe at the same time as the DSG oil change every 40,000 miles. Never had a problem with any of these since starting that regime at 100K with the exception of excess runner control where the vacuum actuation that pulls the flaps was allowing the plastic (again!) rotating swivel to go vertical causing it to stick momentarily under full throttle then snap closed under return spring pressure. Pushed a small piece of hose over the stop peg and it can't reach full vertical any more - no more runner control errors!


Hi Mitch, long time no speak! How are you keeping buddy?
I'm still running my B6 (BKP Engine) and having a bit of bother with a DTC on Vagcom, namely the Intake Manifold Runner Control. I noticed your above info above during some internet searching and its both shed some light (possibly!) and confused me even more! Let me explain:

A lot of answers on this search seem to indicate that the 'Manifold Runner' is actually the 'Anti Shudder Valve'! Then there are others who indicate it's the 'Swirl Flap Axle' in the plastic manifold ports!
I initially leaned toward the former, simply because the A/S valve is electrically driven and will have limit stops/feedback to the ECU (and hence potential for a diagnostic error), whereas the Swirl Flap unit is purely a solenoid operated vacuum driven shaft with NO positional feedback.
I also found a YouTube video showing a guy testing an AS Valve using Vagcom in 'Basic Settings' mode. Vagcom showed this labelled as 'Intake Manifold Runner/Motor Function Test/Adaption'. I tried to do this also, but couldn't find the group item in Vagcom.

So I've had the Manifold off and was pleasantly surprised at the cleanliness of the EGR/Anti Shudder Valves, Manifold and Exhaust Recirc Pipe.
The flaps are in really good nick, considering all the horror stories I've heard on these, and hardly any wear in the spindle/bushes. End float was a little excessive so I fitted a thrust washer to limit this, otherwise all very good. Actuator bench tested with a hand vac pump and fine (this was renewed about 30k miles ago and manifold was cleaned then too).

So all boxed up and tested fine. Pulled the large diameter Air Inlet Hose off the AS Valve and used a mirror to check function-all working as it should (i.e. normally open and only closes for engine shutdown, until about 5 secs afterward).
But still getting the dash alarm and Vagcom Intake Manifold Runner Control fault repeating after clearing the DTC's :(


So your para above has got me wondering how you know this Swirl Flap can cause the 'runner control errors'??? What's the ECU using for feedback as there are no proximity switches fitted to it? Is it maybe sensing manifold pressure irregularities?

I'm wondering if I should pull the bloody thing off again and fit a modified stop too!

Cheers,
Steve

[DMitch16]

Hey Mr Ferry Man, aye it has been a while.

Glad the car is still running as is my 218k beast after a bit of suspension surgery with an electric saw!

My specific code was 'Inlet Manifold Runner Control Deviation - Intermittent' and occurred as mentioned before when either I had accelerated to around 70, backed off a bit then tried to accelerate again. Whether the swirl flap rail by getting stuck then snapping shut unexpectedly upset the pressures in the intake at the main flap or somehow it sensed the vacuum change I'm not sure but it was eradicated by not allowing the swirl rail to over extend thus no longer allowing it to stick. Has been fine ever since after months and months of pinging the engine fault warning pigtail light (which reset ever time the engine was switch off and back on). As you say the actuator for the swirl rail is just a vacuum actuator operated by a vacuum solenoid but that does have an electrical feed so might let the ECU know that it didn't cycle on or off when the flaps shut or the pressure changed. The N75 valve is also in the same vacuum circuit and maybe involved somehow perhaps?

Easy fix for me though.