Golf 1.6 AKL Compression Results

[mike199025q]

I got around 200-207psi on all 4 cylinders, i've read this is over the maximum psi.

Could this just be carbon build up? if so, how do i remove this? car failed its mot on emissions as it was smoking alot, so got new spark plugs(which was all carboned up). It seems to be better at the moment but just wondering on the results

Thank you

[SammoVWT]

Get it scanned, and if you can read some live data. VCDS is a good investment.

[vwcabriolet1971]

How accurate is the compression tester calibration ?

[mike199025q]

No fault codes show

Also, it says 'dual calibrated gauge reading 0-300psi' it's a Clarke 8pc one

At the moment, the car smokes whilst being revved high but runs perfectly and idles perfectly

[SammoVWT]

If its not missfiring or got a shaky rough appearance at idle, did you check your CAT? Might have worn out.

I like to be thorough with a no fault code situation. I take a step back and look at what might cause your fuel mix to richen, then check all of those things, such as O2, fuel pressure etc etc with VCDS - logging actual values and 9/10 you can spot the problem.

Sometimes sensors fail without a code as they just go out of spec or intermittent operation etc.

High rev smoke might be valve seals? I'm not an expert on this one, hopefully someone more knowledgeable may be able to help you.

Check through the usual suspects first, knock them off the list. It will help everyone whos trying to help you.

[mike199025q]

Okay I'll check those things, just done a clutch an gearbox replacement on the car, before that it was stood on a drive not ran or started for over a year, been told it just needs a good run for it to clear up. I'll check those things out though.

[mike199025q]

I did another compression test whilst the engine was warm, 150 on all cylinders give or take 2 or 3

[zollaf]

the actual figures from a compression test are rather meaningless on the whole, what you are looking for is a discrepancy, one or 2 much lower than the rest. your engine would seem to be in fine fettle. what did it actually fail on, i.e. what are the readings from the emissions test.

[mike199025q]

I've just checked and it doesn't say it on the refusal sheet, he said the smoke from the car blocked his emission test pipe up, car has been stood for over a year and only smokes when it's warm

[Crasher]

The AKL is bad for burning oil causing the lambda sensor to shut down and the whole system fills up with carbon. When the lambda sensor shuts down, so does that cat which then cannot remove the blue smoke from the exhaust which is why you see the smoke when it is hot. Sometimes this oil burning can be the valve oil seals due to worn guides but mostly it is due to worn piston rings and I have seen many 1.6 and 2L 8v Golf 4 platform cars go to the breakers recently because of this including a 2002 1.6 Beetle.

[mike199025q]

Can't be the rings can it? Compression test doesn't point to that, maybe seals?

[Crasher]

Of course it could be the rings, the oil scraper rings, not the compression rings. If the oil scraper rings don't work, it burns oil!

[mike199025q]

So it won't pass an mot until that's fixed?

[SammoVWT]

Depending on if the lambda is fouled a new one might get you out of a temporary bind with new oil. But that wont last long if its burning it - same will happen again. You dont want to get to the point where its drinking oil though. Will just end up costing as much in oil as fuel I would expect..

depends on what it failed on so the stress on the might

[mike199025q]

Okay thank you, the car runs perfectly though, no bad oil on dipstick, just drops of water out of the exhaust, idles and drives fine

[Crasher]

just drops of water out of the exhaust, idles and drives fine

But smokes and failed the MOT on emissions? Water is a byproduct of combustion where air contains H2o.

[Doctle Odd]

The rings on the 1.6 are pretty easy to change

[mike199025q]

The rings on the 1.6 are pretty easy to changehow? What makes them easy as opposed to other cars?

[Doctle Odd]

You can do it with the engine in situ, drop the sump take off the head and push up the pistons.

[mike199025q]

Wouldn't I need to do anything else? For example if the bores have taken any damage because of the rings

[Doctle Odd]

Once the pistons are you you can check the bores if they're OK a quick hone and new rings is all you need. If they're scored you'd have to consider the cost of pulling the engine, stripping it down and having a re-bore. If you go down that road you'd need oversize pistons front and rear oil seal etc. It would have to be a pretty special and hard to find engine to justify the cost. If you had to pay to have the work done you'd buy a car for less.

[mike199025q]

Okay hope it doesn't go down that route, I did put some additives in the fuel so it could clean it out, maybe that isn't helping the smoke situation

[Crasher]

What makes them nearly as easy as the previous Golf 1>3 is that the AKL head is pretty simple to remove, unlike the head on a 1.8T GTI Golf 4 and the sump is easy to remove on all of them, as long as you don't strip the two M6 threads in the crank oil seal holder.

The way I suggest you start this process is to give new rings the best possible chance of bedding in by flushing the engine out with Millers CRO before you even start, this can be bought from the forum Sponsor Opie Oils. With the pistons out, it would be a good idea to give the bores a very quick light honing http://www.lasertools.co.uk/item.aspx?cat=1090&item=640 . The action you use for this is quite important so ask when you get that far. You must remove the piston oil spray jets to do this or you will smash the stones.

If you found a bore to be damaged or a liner cracked, pulling the block and re-boring it simply is uneconomic and a cracked liner means the block is FUBAR, even re-ringing is uneconomic to pay a pro to do it, DIY is fine though.

The parts you would need are

Full head set (Goetze, Reinz, Elring) 06A 198 012
8 hydraulic tappets (Febi) 050 109 309 J
Cam belt kit (Febi) 06A 198 119
Water pump (Febi) 06B 121 011 E
Oil pump (Febi) 06A 115 105 B
Con rod bearings (KS, Glyco, Mahle) 034 105 701 007
8 Con rod bolts (Febi) 048 105 425
8 con rod nuts (Febi) 048 105 427
4 Piston sets of rings (KS, Mahle or Goetze) 06B 198 151 or complete piston (KS or Mahle) 050 107 065 E
Two oil filters (genuine only) 06A 115 561 B
10 litres of Millers CRO
10 head bolts (Goetze, Reinz, Elring, Febi) 06A 103 384 C
3 litres of G13 coolant (Febi) G 013 A8J M1 (2 bottles)
Pot of engine assembly paste (Red Line)
Tube of VW white silicon sump sealant (genuine) D 176404A2
Sump drain plug (Febi) N 908 132 01
1 Engine mount bolt (genuine) N 103 280 02
2 engine mount bolts (genuine) N 907 124 03
2 consul bolts (genuine) N 102 096 05
2 Mount bolts (genuine) N 105 167 02
8 manifold nuts (Würth) N 911 308 01
Downpipe gasket (lots of makes available) 1J0 253 115 D
6 downpipe nuts (Würth) N 102 090 09

This list only accounts for the absolute minimum required to do the job correctly and doesn’t take account of the inevitable extras required when doing something on an old car. The brands are the ones I would use. This would take care of any possible wear related head or ring oil use issues. You may find with the valves out that the exhaust valve guides need replacing, these are only £4 each from Febi but have to be professionally fitted. It is extremely unlikely that the piston gudgeon pin bushes will be worn so even if you fitted new pistons they should still be OK. You should be able to polish up and lap the valves even if it needs new guides, the valves MUST not be re-worked, only hand lapped, but exhaust valves are only £15 each from Febi and the inlet valves never wear. You need to add to this the cost of having the head very lightly refaced, just a tickle-no more. If you are interested, I can do some very cometetive prices on many of those parts, especially Febi.

[mike199025q]

I was revving the car before and a lot of water came out of the exhaust, head gasket?

[Doctle Odd]

The head needs to come off anyway, might as well get stuck in.

[Crasher]

I was revving the car before and a lot of water came out of the exhaust, head gasket?

Water is is a natural by product of combustion, if water is coming out of its tail end but you aren't pouring it in at the mouth, then H2o in the air is being turned from vapour to liquid during combustion and blown out the back, quite a normal sign of good combustion.

[Doctle Odd]

What makes them nearly as easy as the previous Golf 1>3 is that the AKL head is pretty simple to remove, unlike the head on a 1.8T GTI Golf 4 and the sump is easy to remove on all of them, as long as you don't strip the two M6 threads in the crank oil seal holder.

The way I suggest you start this process is to give new rings the best possible chance of bedding in by flushing the engine out with Millers CRO before you even start, this can be bought from the forum Sponsor Opie Oils. With the pistons out, it would be a good idea to give the bores a very quick light honing http://www.lasertools.co.uk/item.aspx?cat=1090&item=640 . The action you use for this is quite important so ask when you get that far. You must remove the piston oil spray jets to do this or you will smash the stones.

If you found a bore to be damaged or a liner cracked, pulling the block and re-boring it simply is uneconomic and a cracked liner means the block is FUBAR, even re-ringing is uneconomic to pay a pro to do it, DIY is fine though.

The parts you would need are

Full head set (Goetze, Reinz, Elring) 06A 198 012
8 hydraulic tappets (Febi) 050 109 309 J
Cam belt kit (Febi) 06A 198 119
Water pump (Febi) 06B 121 011 E
Oil pump (Febi) 06A 115 105 B
Con rod bearings (KS, Glyco, Mahle) 034 105 701 007
8 Con rod bolts (Febi) 048 105 425
8 con rod nuts (Febi) 048 105 427
4 Piston sets of rings (KS, Mahle or Goetze) 06B 198 151 or complete piston (KS or Mahle) 050 107 065 E
Two oil filters (genuine only) 06A 115 561 B
10 litres of Millers CRO
10 head bolts (Goetze, Reinz, Elring, Febi) 06A 103 384 C
3 litres of G13 coolant (Febi) G 013 A8J M1 (2 bottles)
Pot of engine assembly paste (Red Line)
Tube of VW white silicon sump sealant (genuine) D 176404A2
Sump drain plug (Febi) N 908 132 01
1 Engine mount bolt (genuine) N 103 280 02
2 engine mount bolts (genuine) N 907 124 03
2 consul bolts (genuine) N 102 096 05
2 Mount bolts (genuine) N 105 167 02
8 manifold nuts (Würth) N 911 308 01
Downpipe gasket (lots of makes available) 1J0 253 115 D
6 downpipe nuts (Würth) N 102 090 09

This list only accounts for the absolute minimum required to do the job correctly and doesn’t take account of the inevitable extras required when doing something on an old car. The brands are the ones I would use. This would take care of any possible wear related head or ring oil use issues. You may find with the valves out that the exhaust valve guides need replacing, these are only £4 each from Febi but have to be professionally fitted. It is extremely unlikely that the piston gudgeon pin bushes will be worn so even if you fitted new pistons they should still be OK. You should be able to polish up and lap the valves even if it needs new guides, the valves MUST not be re-worked, only hand lapped, but exhaust valves are only £15 each from Febi and the inlet valves never wear. You need to add to this the cost of having the head very lightly refaced, just a tickle-no more. If you are interested, I can do some very cometetive prices on many of those parts, especially Febi.


How much would that list add up to?

[Crasher]

This would be the bare minimum possible to do the job but there are bound to be extra's. Personally I would want to use Febi lifters instead of some cheap no brand versions but they are an extra £44.87 and I would prefer an Elring head set personally but these are an extra £28.94.

Full head set with downpipe gasket (Goetze) 06A 198 012 £49.78 (ECP)
8 hydraulic tappets (No brand) 050 109 309 J £49.44 (ECP)
Cam belt kit (Febi) 06A 198 119 £39.72 (C&R)
Water pump (Febi) 06B 121 011 E £35.73 (C&R)
Oil pump (Topran) 06A 115 105 B £64.26 (ECP)
Con rod bearings (Mahle) 034 105 701 007 £46.08 (C&R)
8 Con rod bolts (Febi) 048 105 425 £9.06 (C&R)
8 con rod nuts (Febi) 048 105 427 £3.84 (C&R)
4 Piston sets of rings (Mahle) 06B 198 151 £115.20 (C&R)
Two oil filters (genuine only) 06A 115 561 B £8.86 each (TPS retail)
10 litres of Millers CRO £47 approx (Opie Oils)
Set of head bolts (Febi) 06A 103 384 C £10.37 (C&R)
3 litres of G13 coolant (Febi) G 013 A8J M1 (2 bottles) £18.70 (C&R)
Pot of engine assembly paste (Red Line) £18.95 (C&R)
Tube of VW white silicon sump sealant (genuine) D 176 404 M2 £25.44 (TPS retail)
Sump drain plug (Febi) N 908 132 01 £0.98 (C&R)
1 Engine mount bolt (genuine) N 103 280 02 £4.63 (TPS retail)
2 engine mount bolts (genuine) N 907 124 03 £4.22 (TPS retail)
2 consul bolts (genuine) N 102 096 05 £7.42 (TPS retail)
2 Mount bolts (genuine) N 105 167 02 £4.22 (TPS retail)
8 manifold nuts N 911 308 01 £5.36 (TPS retail)
6 downpipe nuts N 102 090 09 £4.56 (TPS retail)
Head re-face £60 (typical cost)

So a minimum of £633.82 but I would allow another £200 as a contingency for things such as guides, valves, plugs, water housings etc, all the sort of things that go wrong doing a job like this.

[zollaf]

sixty quids for a skim ??? my local plce does them for half that. mind you, they do use a big ******* file.

[Crasher]

I new some clever sod yocal tractor mechanic would have some place in a farm yard that would do it for less.... :biglaugh:

[zollaf]

seriously though, i worked in a garage once in milton keynes. a rover 400 turbo diesel came in with a blown head gasket, so i strips it down and get it ready to skim. oh no says the boss, not enough money in it, so spends the next 2 days flatting it down with sandpaper on a block. keeps checking it with the straight edge and eventually gives it back to me only about 10 thou out, says it will be fine. so i rebuild it , start it up and watch the coolant shoot out the header tank. i muttered some choice words about the boss under my breath. they then tried to blame me for it. so for the sake of 30 quid ( it was a few years ago), a perfectly good car got scrapped. i will never get over that one, or the mazda mx5 that lost its oil pressure and went bang , and after rebuilding the engine they wouldnt get me a new oil pump for it, so it went bang a few days later. i left shortly after that... idiots..

[Crasher]

It stuns me when people will spend hours/days bodging something or take huge financial risks in not doing something like an oil pump during a rebuild and then when it goes bang, scream blue murder!

[zollaf]

ah, this garage was a bit silly for things like that. the boss was tighter than a properly tight thing, with absolutely no common sense. they did all the jobs no other garage in the are would touch, and the same with their customers.

[Crasher]

Yes, I am a bit guilty of doing jobs no one else will touch, it makes me endless grief. I am fighting an A6 at the moment that everyone else in the country has washed their hands of and it is getting me down. I have nailed it down to either two faulty (aftermarket) high pressure FSI pumps or a faulty ECU output driver.

[zollaf]

ah, wrong sort of jobs. you take on ones no one is clever enough to work out, they took on the ones everyone else was too clever to take on... :)

[zollaf]

jobs like, my transit need a grands worth of welding but i only want to spend 300 quid, will you do it. those sorts of jobs...

[SammoVWT]

All you need is an oscilloscope Crasher ;)

[Doctle Odd]

Seems to me that it would need to be a hell of a Mk4 to spend that money on parts and close to double that if the OP can't do the work.

[Crasher]

All you need is an oscilloscope Crasher ;)

I had to get my Snap Off scope out yesterday as my multimeter of the same make suddenly started reading 9 volts instead of 13.8 and I don't have a Snap Off rep to give it back to for repair-again!



Seems to me that it would need to be a hell of a Mk4 to spend that money on parts and close to double that if the OP can't do the work.

My point exactly. I had a Beetle in from a trader the other week with the same issue (I think I mentioned it) and it simply didn't make sense to fix it, the car was scrap which is why some nasty piece of work had traded it into him and legged it. Why is it a member of the public can do that to a trader but a trader can't do it to a member of the public? This is why used cars cause so much trouble.

[mike199025q]

I've got vagcom and need to read lambda readings but I can't seem to find the group in measuring blocks, anyone know which group it is in?

[Crasher]

Which value do you need, actual live value or ad/mult trim values? Do you want the voltages or the Lambda value +/-1λ ?

[mike199025q]

Live value, need to know if the O2 is functioning correctly

[Crasher]

The useful values are the voltage (0.00>1.00v) and the regulation (-25>+25 %) you can read these together in Group 010 zones 1 and 2 respectively. The voltage signal for a rich mixture (low oxygen) is approx. 0.7>1.0v and the voltage for a lean mixture (high oxygen) is approx. 0.0...0.3v. When changing from rich to lean and back again, the voltage will change from 0.7>1.0v to 0.0>0.3v or back again as the Lambda control system cannot keep the ideal mixture (Stoichiometric 14.7:1) constant so the control cycles constantly between being slightly too lean and slightly too rich. The displayed value must temporarily drop below 0.3v and exceed 0.6v. A constant value below 0.45v signifies lean and above 0.45v is rich. When viewed on a graph, a functioning lambda sensor shows a sine wave at a constant engine load such as idle. The maximum correction is +/-25% but in theory, anything more than +/-10% indicates a problem. In other groups, it is possible to show the values the ECU has learnt for correction purposes as part of its long-term trims.




Voltage
Possible cause
Possible solution


No cycling voltage
Large amount of unmetered air
Check air intake system for leaks


Constant 0.00>0.30v
Spark plug defective
Fuel pressure too low or too high
Check spark plugs
Check fuel pressure regulator and holding pressure


Constant 0.70>1.00v
Injector defective
Coolant temperature sender defective
Activated charcoal filter solenoid valve
Lambda probe heating not functioning
Lambda probe defective or dirty
Check injectors
Check coolant temperature sender
Check solenoid valve 1 for activated charcoal filter in output tests
Check Lambda probe heating
Check Lambda probe


Constant approx. 5v
Short to positive via: Lambda probe, probe wiring, earth wiring, engine control unit
Check Lambda probe wiring


Constant 1.50>1.60v
Wiring open circuit via: Fuse, Lambda probe, probe wire, earth wire, engine control unit
Check Lambda probe wiring

[mike199025q]

Brilliant! Thank you, I'm on the process of removing the head, got everything off just the head bolts now. As I started to loosen the first bolt I heard it loosen but after more loosening the bolt is stripped, the bolt won't grip now. Any help?

[Crasher]

What, the M12 XZN fitting in the bolt cap is stripped or the bolt is just going round? If the thread in the block is gone you will have to apply force up on the head (engine crane?) and spin the bolt to rodger itself out and then hope that it can be Time Sert repaired or Helicoil inserted but that is very specialist work on a head bolt thread in an aluminum block where the insert needs to be around 30-mm long.

[mike199025q]

No the bolt head is stripped, I'm turning the wratchet and it's just gripping then spinning

[Doctle Odd]

Do you mean the triple square is damaged inside? If so you might be able to tap a 12 point socket over it and remove it that way. If youre using cheap bits throw them at an annoying neighbour and get a good quality set

[Crasher]

If the socket head is damaged by you using a Ribe key instead of a Polydrive, you will have to get a long drill bit of about 4-mm and drill down the middle as far as possible and DO NOT snap the drill bit! This action should release enough of the bolts internal torque to allow a Torx key of say T55 to be hammered into the stripped head and the hammering action should also help shock the bolt loose. For when it goes back together, get yourself a nice new T10070 key such as an M10 VW Ribe Form x 140mm. (AST4426), I use a KLANN KL-4051-3310

[mike199025q]

I got the cylinder head off, soon as I lifted the head oil came out from underneath it. Oil was on the head gasket leading from 3 and 4 cylinder. Number 4 cylinder had a lot of oil and water in it. I can still see the cross hatching in the cylinders

[Crasher]

Oil is fed to the head around the front 2nd from the cars left head bolt via a gallery so there will be oil around there.

[mike199025q]

Soon as I took the head off this is what I seen(note cylinder 4 has oil and water in it)

http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv67/mike19903/golfproject/IMG_1741_zpsenhhrzuu.jpg

Then the head gasket itself around cylinder 4

http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv67/mike19903/golfproject/IMG_1743_zps3girpjt5.jpg

The head with oil on from # 4

http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv67/mike19903/golfproject/IMG_1740_zpso0o2ax0q.jpg

Closer look at the piston 4

http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv67/mike19903/golfproject/IMG_1746_zpsa9tttrrx.jpg

http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv67/mike19903/golfproject/IMG_0021_zpsz0wtt5y3.jpg

Cylinder walls, can see cross hatching

http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv67/mike19903/golfproject/IMG_0010_zpso1ffczc9.jpg

Valves assemblies without buckets on

http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv67/mike19903/golfproject/IMG_0024_zpskarn6nq2.jpg

All cleaned up

http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv67/mike19903/golfproject/IMG_0016_zpsghulsg45.jpg

[zollaf]

the head is full of oil and water. as you lift it off that oil and water has to go somewhere and into a cylinder it will go, so perfectly normal.

[Crasher]

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd20/Crasher1964/AKL%20block_zpsfji1xorc.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/Crasher1964/media/AKL%20block_zpsfji1xorc.jpg.html)

This is the main pressure oil feed to the head, when you remove the head, all the oil in the cam and lifter gallery will pour out of the adjacent cylinder head bolt hole which is where the oil goes into the head, all perfectly normal. Those bores are scratched and need a light hone. How much money shall I put on you not having put running in oil through first like I advised?

Due to the use of a MLS head gasket, the surface finish of the head and block must not be less than that given by 100 grit emery cloth.

[mike199025q]

I'm guilty of the oil situation, no I didn't. So the head gasket hasn't failed? would like to know whats wrong with the car lol just want it sold.. at the moment i'm thinking head gasket, valve stem seals or oil control rings

[Crasher]

Sometimes this oil burning can be the valve oil seals due to worn guides but mostly it is due to worn piston rings

Unless you have X ray vision taking the head off is no more use than not removing it in the first place, you need to remove the exhaust valves to check the seals and guides for wear and you need to remove the pistons to see if the oil rings have any tension but that is a subjective analysis that requires you knowing how they should feel. Placing an old oil ring in the bore, squaring it up with a piston and then seeing how it moves can give you a clue.

[mike199025q]

Okay I'll check them, there's two piston ring kits available. One normal size the other is .05mm over sized. Which should I get if need be?

[Crasher]

You would need to measure the bores to determine that and to do that you need a proper bore micrometer which is £75. If there is no wear gap left at the top of the bore after honing (a small unhoned shiny ring about 10-mm down) then I would stick to standard size. Which make of ring are you looking at?

[mike199025q]

Should I get the head skimmed or just use some of that cloth you mentioned? Also, I'm going to take the pistons out remove the rings except the oil control ring, put the piston in upside down and check the tension, if there is a fair bit of tension will that mean the oil control rings are okay?

[Crasher]

I would strongly recommend that the head is given just a little tickle across the face by an engineering shop, just to make sure it has the right surface finish for an MLS gasket (what they call RA for Roughness Average) and to make sure it is 100% flat. This is an AGU head after rebuild and it shows a typical machine shop surface finish.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd20/Crasher1964/AGU%20head%20rebuild_zpst7nduapq.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/Crasher1964/media/AGU%20head%20rebuild_zpst7nduapq.jpg.html)

If the block was out and apart I would even suggest that was done but the combination of ally and iron can be tricky to re-finish. I tap the dowel pins out through the other side with a drift and then use a big block of steel I had machined up with a piece of 80 grit to give the top deck a clean flat finish that again will bite into an MLS gasket. Make sure you block off all the openings with cloth or paper towel as you do not want grit getting down into oil and water areas and don't forget the oil feed drilling BUT don't forget to remove the bungs after, do a count of them as you fit them and count them back out. This is the ready to assemble finish on a BUD that was having a head rebuild only.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd20/Crasher1964/80%20grit%20to%20block%20top_zps4c0bt3lw.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/Crasher1964/media/80%20grit%20to%20block%20top_zps4c0bt3lw.jpg.html)

You need to take the rings off of the piston to check them and then use a piston to push them back into the block square. Hopefully the ones you buy will not need gapping but you should always check the gap, especially on the top ring. This is a Total Seal top ring out of the packet for a 2 litre BAM conversion I did last year, way way too tight for a mental turbo nutter engine...

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd20/Crasher1964/No%201%20top%20ring%20gap%20out%20of%20packet_zpsq jhpybx1.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/Crasher1964/media/No%201%20top%20ring%20gap%20out%20of%20packet_zpsq jhpybx1.jpg.html)

[mike199025q]

Took the valves out, intake and exhaust valves on cylinder 4, the exhaust valve had oil on the valve seat. The bottom of the valve near the valve head was wet too, so the problem was worn valve seals, replacing them all. Also, when pulling the valve out, it didn't give a little tension like it did with the new seals in. Also, took number 4 piston out, the oil control ring was completely flush with the piston, so the oil ring had gone too going to check the others soon

[Crasher]

The oil ring was what I was expecting. If the valve seals were worn, you will need new exhaust valve guides fitting if you want the seals to last.

[mike199025q]

The piston set I got is OE but the label on the package says put the swigly ring on top of both the other oil rings but the rings on te piston look like the swigly ring is sandwiched in the middle of the two other rings, also you told me to ask you about honing so I got a glazing tool, what is the best way to do it?

[Crasher]

Most ring sets convert the oil ring to a three piece set up, individual manufacturers have their own way of doing things. With a three piece ring you fit 1 ring, the spacer and then another so the spacer is in between and blow the rings. Make sure that the ring gaps and the spacer join are spaced even apart at a third of the way around for each, 120 degrees apart and when you put the upper rings o, do the same for those referencing the top oil ring as your starting point. The idea with the honing is to get a nice even cross hatch. Use a controllable slow speed on the drill and maybe even practice the action first but the stones can really fly around so be careful, its hard to describe how to do it timing your up and down to the rotation speed to get that nice pattern. Watch those stones don't hit the crank webs or journals. Keep the bores and stones well lubed with very light oil. Do as few a number of passes as you can to get a finish, you would be surprised how easy it is to cause piston slap. As you did not pre-flush it, you should drain the first fill of running in oil after about an hour of running.

[JMR1]

""" Yes, I am a bit guilty of doing jobs no one else will touch, it makes me endless grief. I am fighting an A6 at the moment that everyone else in the country has washed their hands of and it is getting me down. I have nailed it down to either two faulty (aftermarket) high pressure FSI pumps or a faulty ECU output driver."""
Crasher, you strike me as the kind of man who would go crazy if he was NOT facing a challenge of one kind or another !!!!:beerchug:

[mike199025q]

Do the valve spring compressors c clamp type have a special way of operation? Lol using it just how I did in college and when I screw the valve head stopper in and push handle down it's impossible to actually make it pushed down. However if I loosen it up and am able to push the handle down to compress the spring, the spring isn't far enough compressed to let the collets come out. Also, any tips on inserting the collets? Pain in the... Lol

[Crasher]

Do the valve spring compressors c clamp type have a special way of operation

It depends on the design, if they don't have a deep enough jaw then you can struggle. If you do get a retainer jammed into the locks, a quick thwack with a socket and hammer with a cloth under the valve can shock it free and make your life easier.


Crasher, you strike me as the kind of man who would go crazy if he was NOT facing a challenge of one kind or another !!!!:beerchug:

True but I'm certifiable anyway...:banana:

[mike199025q]

This is the valve spring compressor in question https://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/cht461-ohc-valve-spring-compressor?da=1&TC=SRC-valve%20spring

I've seen ones that are magnet(which attract the collets) and then insert the collets back into place, can't seem to find it though

[Crasher]

That one looks about the same as mine but I tend to use the VAG lever method using a Hazet lever as it's quicker.

[mike199025q]

Where are those available from? The type you got, also ive got this for honing https://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/cht259-3-legged-glaze-breaker?da=1&TC=SRC-glaze is that okay for the job?

[Crasher]

That hone is perfect, just a couple of smooth passes on each bore to take away the shine of glazing. I bought my Hazet levers and adapters years ago and I can't even find them in their catalogue. The VW system works along the same principles as this Laser tool http://www.lasertools.co.uk/item.aspx?cat=1091&item=10430

[mike199025q]

I've just took the oil control rings out on one piston(# 4) and they was all coked up, cleaned everything up and reinstalled them and they are now free and aren't flush with the piston. Does this mean I can just free all of them up and not replace them?

[Crasher]

It would be very stupid to do that.

[zollaf]

waste of time re using them really, far better to stick new rings in. they will be all worn and you want new ones to bed into your nicely honed bores.

[webley]

I am at the same point as you are with an AKL engine.
Head off and a s/h one rebuilt with new guides etc ready to fit.
I have one piston out,no 4 and like yours the bottom ring (oil control) is flush with the piston,Compression rings are fine.
It it not crudded up.
In fact the engine is very clean and has obviously had a decent oil change history.
It just looks as if the oil control rings are just bad design.
I will be fitting Mahle or similar quality after a hone.
Also new shells and bolts.Copper is just starting to show on the rod bearing,not the cap.
No scoring at all on the crank.
There is also very little wear in the bores,no lip or scoring.
Just reinforces my view that regular oil changes are the most important part of a service.

I have a Transporter 1.9 TD (ABL engine) with 268.000 miles on it which I think proved the point.
Doesn`t burn oil,Dribbles a bit then so do I.

[mike199025q]

Really bad engine this to own, it's had a new clutch, gearbox, got a new head gasket and stem seals now rings, need to do things 'that will do for now' way now because I bought this car to fix and sell now I'm losing my profit :(

[webley]

No not a bad engine,apart from the oil control rings which seem to big for the groove.

Now the 1.6 lt aircooled in the T25,that was a bad engine.

Mine is a 2000 plate so 15 years old.Its done 116,000 miles.
The car is to clean to scrap.
I have a feeling it will still be going when a lot of these TSI engined cars are at the scrap yard because they are beyond economical repair.

I am a VW fan so the repair will cost what it costs.
I will enjoy doing it and will learn something in the process.

[Crasher]

Now the 1.6 lt aircooled in the T25,that was a bad engine

Ohh God you have just reminded me about the CT, I had tried to forget about that appalling piece of ****! A guy that used to work for me back in the mid 80's was a mechanic at a VW dealer in the late 70's early 80's when the T3 came out with the CT and he told me he saw one throw a rod as it left the forecourt when the owner collected it. The DF/DG water boxer that followed weren't much better, the number of snapped studs I have had spark eroded out of those! By the way, it is a T3, not a T25, a Transporter 3 Type 2.

[mike199025q]

After almost 8 months of not even touching it due to family issues i've now started working on it.

I've deglazed the cylinders but need advice on whether it will do(not keeping the car)


http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv67/mike19903/IMG_0131_zpshfzfrrmy.jpg

http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv67/mike19903/IMG_0133_zps6olri09b.jpg

http://i670.photobucket.com/albums/vv67/mike19903/IMG_0135_zpsbl3eww3f.jpg

[Crasher]

They look good, make sure you use running in oil on the bores when you fit the pistons and use running in oil for the first 500 miles at least, normal mineral after that NOT synthetic.

[zollaf]

cracking job. well done..

[mike199025q]

Wow thank you, first time i've done this. Did it in college but working on real cars in real enviromennts is a completely different thing.

Thanks guys

[Crasher]

working on real cars in real enviromennts is a completely different thing

Yes, you too will one day have to explain to an incredulous disbelieving customer why it took an hour to get one bolt out...

[mike199025q]

Wow, been a long time!

Well, I got a job not long after I began this, so now I'm not working anymore I'm cracking on with it.. cylinders honed, rings in, new shells in. Is there any way i can tell whether the work I've done will work. The pistons needed a help in hand to get down the cylinder when i put them in, tells me i haven't honed too much?

[Crasher]

Did you use a bore gauge and a known honing grade?

[mike199025q]

I didn't use a gauge, no. but did use a honing tool from machine mart? the pistons seem to be quite snug in the bores

[Crasher]

Only running it will tell you if you got it right. The singular most important point about building it and running it up is you keep synthetic oil away from it. When we do this sort of job, we firstly flush the engine with running in oil before we strip it. After the rebuild, the engine is run up and driven 500 miles on Millers CRO running in oil. After this we insist that the car is run on mineral oil only for 10K miles but mineral oil has been a problem to locate, we tried Fuschs Titan which listed as mineral and that caused two new build engines to burn oil so we changed to Motul 4000 which specifically states it is mineral. We get all these odd ball oils from the forum sponsor Opie Oils, they are always very helpful. When we had the issue with the engines burning the Fuschs oil, they even arranged to get it tested to see if it would help but the cure ended up being using Millers Glaze Bust oil and then going over to the Motual 4000 15w/40 and this stopped the oil burning on both. These were old school engines, a Golf 2 16v 2 litre conversion and an Audi Coupe 2.3 conversion, but the same rules apply to modern engines. VAG have been having nightmares with oil consumption and this is partly down to trying to get a brand new engine cover 30000 Km from the first fill without the old tradition of a first oil chnage at 1000 ish miles.

[mike199025q]

Only running it will tell you if you got it right. The singular most important point about building it and running it up is you keep synthetic oil away from it. When we do this sort of job, we firstly flush the engine with running in oil before we strip it. After the rebuild, the engine is run up and driven 500 miles on Millers CRO running in oil. After this we insist that the car is run on mineral oil only for 10K miles but mineral oil has been a problem to locate, we tried Fuschs Titan which listed as mineral and that caused two new build engines to burn oil so we changed to Motul 4000 which specifically states it is mineral. We get all these odd ball oils from the forum sponsor Opie Oils, they are always very helpful. When we had the issue with the engines burning the Fuschs oil, they even arranged to get it tested to see if it would help but the cure ended up being using Millers Glaze Bust oil and then going over to the Motual 4000 15w/40 and this stopped the oil burning on both. These were old school engines, a Golf 2 16v 2 litre conversion and an Audi Coupe 2.3 conversion, but the same rules apply to modern engines. VAG have been having nightmares with oil consumption and this is partly down to trying to get a brand new engine cover 30000 Km from the first fill without the old tradition of a first oil chnage at 1000 ish miles.Thank you, I'll get some millers!

When I'm putting camshaft on, I'm lining it up with the OT mark on the plastic cover but when I tighten the camshaft down the camshaft spins and knocks out the timing mark. I have cylinder 1 at TDC and now just the camshaft to go before i put cylinder head back on

[Crasher]

Just get an 18-mm spanner on there and move it to the alignment after you have torqued down the cap caps. With the pistons all set flat at middle dead centre, it doesn't matter where the cam is, just put the head on and tighten it down and worry about the valve timing when you come to put the belt on.

[mike199025q]

Just get an 18-mm spanner on there and move it to the alignment after you have torqued down the cap caps. With the pistons all set flat at middle dead centre, it doesn't matter where the cam is, just put the head on and tighten it down and worry about the valve timing when you come to put the belt on.Thank you, guessing the pistons should be set in the middle so i can get camshaft on before i time it so the pistons dont get in the way of the open valves? plus is that oil i need millers CRO 10w-40 running in mineral oil? and when i put the pistons in, i had to have some force to put them further down the cylinder which tells me they are tight and won't let oil through?

Also, I've read that once an engine has been rebuilt, to disconnect the fueling and spark and crank the engine over so the oil can circulate then fire it up?

[Crasher]

1035988 (tel:1035988)[/URL]]when i put the pistons in, i had to have some force to put them further down the cylinder which tells me they are tight

You did clean the piston ring grooves out........ didn't you? The pistons should tap down just with the inertia of a 2lb dead blow hammer just dropped onto them from an inch or so, going tight towards BDC indicates tapered bores and piston rings which can't "butt" up their ends due to grove carbon or file to fit rings which have not been gapped. On my very first ever full engine rebuild on my 1972 1302 when I was 18 I fitted new rings to the original pistons but I knew nothing about ring groove carbon build up, that was 35 years ago and the car is still only 10 feet behind me in the garage..... The engine is out again though, and has been since 1997!

[mike199025q]

You did clean the piston ring grooves out........ didn't you? The pistons should tap down just with the inertia of a 2lb dead blow hammer just dropped onto them from an inch or so, going tight towards BDC indicates tapered bores and piston rings which can't "butt" up their ends due to grove carbon or file to fit rings which have not been gapped. On my very first ever full engine rebuild on my 1972 1302 when I was 18 I fitted new rings to the original pistons but I knew nothing about ring groove carbon build up, that was 35 years ago and the car is still only 10 feet behind me in the garage..... The engine is out again though, and has been since 1997!No not extremely tight or alot of force, just tight enough where they didnt just drop down. Was worried i honed too much but not now. How will i check that piston one is correctly at TDC without having to take away all the belts to look at the crank pulley timing mark? it means taking engine mounts out and moving expansion tanks etc which i can do without

[Crasher]

You imply there that there is a point where they do drop down on the their own, if so then there IS a problem, the way the piston behaves MUST be tight requiring a determined shove and the force required be indistinguishably linear from BDC to TDC. The simple answer is you should change the belt but the 0 TDC mark is on the flywheel anyway, visible through the hole in the top after removing the 27-mm hex plug.

[mike199025q]

You imply there that there is a point where they do drop down on the their own, if so then there IS a problem, the way the piston behaves MUST be tight requiring a determined shove and the force required be indistinguishably linear from BDC to TDC. The simple answer is you should change the belt but the 0 TDC mark is on the flywheel anyway, visible through the hole in the top after removing the 27-mm hex plug.Noooo, sorry didnt mean to confuse you. At no point they drop down on their own, they all require the same degree of force to go from the top of the cylinder to the bottom and okay brilliant thank you

Yes, i cleaned the piston ring grooves, the rings are freely moving before i put them in the bores

[mike199025q]

How do I find out what order the camshaft caps go back in? When I took them out I put them down in the correct order but a family member accidently kicked them not knowing they was there

[Crasher]

They are numbered 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5... To put the cam back in, oil the running surfaces and install it with caps 2 and 4, tightened diagonally to 20Nm. Then install caps 3, 1 and 5 and tighten to 20Nm. Cap 1 MUST have a very thin slither of RTV applied to the head contact surfaces which must be perfectly dry and clean. It is vital that you put the cam caps on the right way around and the only way to check this is to set them up with the cam out so you can see if they are misaligned. If you put one on back to front it WILL crack the cap and possibly the stud tower, you cannot buy new caps and second hand ones don't work as they are all machine matched to an individual head.

[mike199025q]

Okay thank you for that!

Just out of curiousity, if one cap did snap. What would the next step be? Second hand head, welding the cap up? Would a second hand one not work at all for it?

[Crasher]

I have seen this problem a number of times over the years but only had this once myself with a new trainee on the YTS scheme, it was on a 10 year old Audi 80 1.6 LS, a 1979 model, so a fair while ago! He put one of the caps on back to front and it snapped the cap in two, they are made of an odd ally which won't weld, he also bust the stud out of the side of the tower. After I had finished mopping up the blood and teeth (they never did find his body...) I took the same number cap off of another head (I had piles of them) and went through dozens of them until I found one which was close. Then I took it to my engineers and he TIG welded up the stud location and decked the top. He bored the cam location out to something like 28-mm (can't ask him, he's been dead 10 years) from its original 26-mm for a set of VW insert cam bearings, a well hidden secret, and made grooves for the tangs. These are part number 056 103 652 at £9.01 from any VW dealer and you would need 10...ouch. You can get a set of 10 from a Glyco dealer under part number N118/5 STD. Finally he bolted the cam in and put the new cap on with one stud so he could perfectly drill a new hole and tap it out to M8x1.25 for a new stud.

http://auto-land.pl/allegro/MARCIN/N1185%20STD.JPG

[zollaf]

you wont snap a cap unless you try to tighten it down in the wrong place. put them in place without the cam first so you can see the hole where the cam goes is all lined up on all of them. its all line bored together so any ridge where they meat the head and its wrong.

[mike199025q]

I know I've checked them all and they fit fine, if one of them did snap would a second hand head be needed? What would the cost be for a machine shop?

[zollaf]

dont snap one. as you tighten then down have a spanner on the cam and keep turning it. if it goes tight then stop. if the cap bolt goes tight, stop. seriously, you would need to be a proper monkey to snap one.

[mike199025q]

Okay :) thank you, what running in oil would you recommend?

[Crasher]

As I said in post 86, Millers CRO (Competition Running in Oil) from forum sponsor Opie Oils.

[mike199025q]

okay thank you, ill order some of that oil!

was checking the cam caps before and they look completely flat where they bolt to the head, unlike the main caps which look like they have patterns on them which correlates to the block

[Crasher]

You mean the rods, these feature the GKN developed "fractured" cap technology which ensures perfect bore alignment on assembly.

[mike199025q]

I've put the camshaft in, when I turn the camshaft it 'pops' like the lobes are slipping off the Buckets. This normal? Maybe because of the oil making it slip under tension? I'm thinking it's normal and wouldn't slip with the belt on etc. However I'm after clarification

[Crasher]

The lobe transition should be perceptible from one to the other in feel at the cam sprocket bolt but relatively inaudible. New lifters?

[mike199025q]

No not new lifters, just been stood for over a year. It's like the lobes slip off the lifters just as the lobe end travels off the edge of the lifters and the lifters 'pop' no new camshaft or Buckets

[Crasher]

New guides or valves, have you had the valves out?

[mike199025q]

no new guides or valves but yes had the valves out, is there a problem with the camshaft or anything? I'll get a video of the pop today

My dad bought a cylinder head off eBay once taken from a running car and it did this popping, the camshaft and valves etc hadn't been removed so I'm confused now

[zollaf]

is it just the slap sound you get turning the cam as the lobe rides down off one follower as the cam closes and another lobe hits a follower with a 'pop' noise. if so, quite normal.

[mike199025q]

It's difficult to explain, when the end point of a lobe has reached the end point of a lifter(so when it closes) it slips off the bucket and that's the noise

Here's a video link Dropbox - Video 17-11-2016, 10 51 22.mov (https://www.dropbox.com/s/kp6wht6l92z62p8/Video%2017-11-2016%2C%2010%2051%2022.mov?dl=0)

[zollaf]

perfectly normal, thats just the valve closing and spinning the cam, nothing to worry about.

[mike199025q]

Would that happen with the timing belt on? I looked over at the valves and they close quickly when that pop happens. Plus the cam sprocket jumps when it happens but thank you puts my mind at ease

[zollaf]

thats how an engine works, as one valve closes another shortly start to open so as you turn it over you get a tight bit as a valve opens, then a pop as it springs closed and then tight again as it opens another valve. the more cylinders the less the effect is. a rover v8 cam is tight all the way round as its always opening a valve, a little twin or triple has more springy bits. what happens to the timing belt, well, when the engine is doing tickover 800 rpm, the canm is doing 400 rpm so inertia takes over and this effect disappears. but, this is why an old timing belt will break when an engine is started or stops, the springy effect comes into play at low revs and bam, snapped belt.

[mike199025q]

Ahh brilliant yes all makes perfect sense to me now! Suppose I'm just getting a little paranoid lol

[zollaf]

yes, you are..

[mike199025q]

What tool would I need to tension the timing belt tensioner? I know I need to use those two little holes on the tensioner but don't have a tool for it. Plus I can't find a 27mm hex bit in Halfords or machine mart

[Crasher]

Google (https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=27mm+hex+key)

I cut mine down so I could use it in a 27-mm socket

There are dozens of self obsessed "love my own voice" ******* on You Tube showing how to use this

Runtime Error (http://www.lasertools.co.uk/product/3107) This is a link to the Laser web site

P.S. No idea why the link above says that

[mike199025q]

Bought the tensioner tool, however couldn't bring myself to buy the hex bit for 40 pound so thought on my feet and went to my local engineering shop and bought a bolt with a 27mm head and two nuts Dropbox - Photo 12-12-2016, 19 13 16.jpg (https://www.dropbox.com/s/xmc9bt3svrrzgw4/Photo%2012-12-2016%2C%2019%2013%2016.jpg?dl=0)

The top nut would be a locking nut and the bottom nut I would use to undo the gearbox cover. However, the top nut still turned as I was trying to undo the cover. So I got a hammer and smashed the threads of the bolt(so the nuts couldn't turn) and I got the cover off! All for £3!

[mike199025q]

That tensioner tool doesn't fit between the engine mount and tensioner Dropbox - Photo 14-12-2016, 13 29 37.jpg (https://www.dropbox.com/s/afb7ce9pfnekqtb/Photo%2014-12-2016%2C%2013%2029%2037.jpg?dl=0)

Plus the belt won't fit over the camshaft even when I've used my fingers to take the slack off the tensioner(away from belt) Dropbox - Photo 14-12-2016, 13 29 25.jpg (https://www.dropbox.com/s/5onkpqyqaogcp0b/Photo%2014-12-2016%2C%2013%2029%2025.jpg?dl=0)

EDIT: I figured I'd have to remove engine mount and bracket but I'm not sure how I'd best get the far left(towards the drivers side) bolt out of the bracket, should I raise it up so it clears the metal pipes, or should I get it from underneath? Don't know how much I can actually raise the engine before the gearbox mount snaps lol

[Crasher]

No, none will, you have to support the engine from an inner wing cross bar or subframe jack and remove the “consul” as it is called. Time served spanner monkeys who have worked on the PQ34 platform since it came in for the 97 A3 often have evil thoughts about slowly torturing to death the person responsible, a billion expletives must have been uttered over the years because of that design.

[mike199025q]

What does the consul look like? I've never heard of it before

There's three bolts in total holding the bracket on isn't there? Then I can get the tensioner tool in and hopefully get the belt on after I've timed it

[Crasher]

The bracket is the consul, the mount on the inner wing attaches to this by two M12 bolts. Firstly you take off the mount and then unbolt the consul from the block, the lower rear bolt is a pig to get at, I use a 3/8" drive very short 16-mm 6 sided socket and a low profile ratchet. On most engines, it is impossible to get the consul out of the space, you have to work around it with it dropping onto your hands and generally driving you nuts. If it does come out, be careful not to build back up so far as to not be able to get it back in, typically this can happen with the water pump out. I can assure you from experience to build it all back up with the consul out and then not be able to get it back in is VERY VERY annoying.

[mike199025q]

I've removed the engine mount from the wing(had the steering res on it) and now all I'm left with is the consul attached to the block, I've got one of the bolts out(one on the front of it) struggling to get the bolt on the far left(little hole thing above it)

[mike199025q]

This is what I have so far

Dropbox - Photo 14-12-2016, 14 44 35.jpg (https://www.dropbox.com/s/isf1emslkye5wsu/Photo%2014-12-2016%2C%2014%2044%2035.jpg?dl=0)

Dropbox - Photo 14-12-2016, 14 44 45.jpg (https://www.dropbox.com/s/g9hx4cdhbcro8s2/Photo%2014-12-2016%2C%2014%2044%2045.jpg?dl=0)

Dropbox - Photo 14-12-2016, 14 44 56.jpg (https://www.dropbox.com/s/f9jrr5qoc5esauo/Photo%2014-12-2016%2C%2014%2044%2056.jpg?dl=0)

[Crasher]

Taking your third pic 14 44 56 as the reference, you have released the most obvious bolt. Using the face of the clock as a guide, the first would have been at 2 o'clock, your next one is at 10 o'clock and the third at 5 o'clock. At 10 you will need a deep 3/8" 16mm socket and the third at 5 is best accessed by lowering the transaxle down so you can get at it from below the inner wing. You will find this easier if you disconnect the lower torque reaction mount (AKA dog bone) from the gearbox and subframe. One important posing, nearly every (obsessively all) of the fasteners you remove MUST be replaced, apart from one or two they are all one time only which stand a high chance of snapping if re-used.

[mike199025q]

Okay thank you!

How much 'flex' as the mounts got? I'm talking about lowering and raising the engine via a trolley jack?

[Crasher]

With the lower torque arm disconnected the gearbox mount can take quite a lot of deflection without being damaged, certainly enough for what you need but take care with it on a trolley jack, it can be a little wobbly.

[mike199025q]

I've got enough access now to just fit the tool into it, but still the cambelt is too tight to fit over the camshaft :(

Dropbox - Photo 15-12-2016, 11 13 21.jpg (https://www.dropbox.com/s/r90cg6z6ob4uywt/Photo%2015-12-2016%2C%2011%2013%2021.jpg?dl=0)

Dropbox - Photo 15-12-2016, 11 13 56.jpg (https://www.dropbox.com/s/cre7gfwn76zmhlf/Photo%2015-12-2016%2C%2011%2013%2056.jpg?dl=0)

[Crasher]

Firstly I can't agree with you re-using a cam belt, it's a false economy when a new one is £21 but they can be really difficult to get on, have you properly slackened off the tensioner?

[mike199025q]

I wasn't aware I could just buy the belt, though they came with the kit normally. And I've watched the tensioner move as I turn it, the tensioner moves towards the rear of the car and looks like it releases tention. I remember it being difficult to take off, it's like it doesn't even fit

And by slackened you mean the nut or the tension with the two holes?

[Crasher]

Clockwise to release, anti clock to tighten

[mike199025q]

Sorry, yes I'm turning it clock wise, those two little holes move to the right on the last picture are at the lock of the turn(can't turn anymore)

[mike199025q]

I cannot get this belt on, even completely removed the consul and still won't go on, not sure what my next step is to be honest lol

Dropbox - Photo 16-12-2016, 12 56 20.jpg (https://www.dropbox.com/s/z0mw2a6d2kvkpmc/Photo%2016-12-2016%2C%2012%2056%2020.jpg?dl=0)

Dropbox - Photo 16-12-2016, 13 51 02.jpg (https://www.dropbox.com/s/f6sd9qt5vvkit1x/Photo%2016-12-2016%2C%2013%2051%2002.jpg?dl=0)

[zollaf]

in the second pic you can see the tensioner has a little more to give. is the centre bolt loose so it can find its loosest point as you pull the belt. they can be a pain. sometimes it helps to remove the tensioner, get the belt on the cam a small bit, then the tensioner and wiggle them into place,.

[mike199025q]

I've tried turning the tensioner to the far most clockwise till it won't go any further and still too tight to go on. Yes the nut is lose, it's just being a pain! lol perhaps the belt isn't fully on the crankshaft? Other than that I don't see why it won't go on, it was tight to take off too as I remember

[Crasher]

One way is to take off the top pulley, put it into the belt in the right position and then lift and push the pulley back onto the cam.

[mike199025q]

Okay thanks guys I'll try those two ideas!

Just for reference, how do I take the tension off the fan belt? Can't see no bolts other than the 3 to remove the tensioner

[Crasher]

It is spring loaded

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd20/Crasher1964/AKL%20poly%20v%20tens_zpsqmrc61h5.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/Crasher1964/media/AKL%20poly%20v%20tens_zpsqmrc61h5.jpg.html)

[mike199025q]

Do you know what? As I've come this far might as well replace the timing belt, only problem is how do I get fan belt crank pulley off without rotating the crank? Tried an impact gun(battery powered) to no avail or is it just the smaller bolts around the middle bolt I need to remove?

Are these timing marks good?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6ch933bxph088ud/Photo%2017-12-2016%2C%2012%2030%2007.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7nijcgjostilfmw/Photo%2017-12-2016%2C%2012%2045%2058.jpg?dl=0

Can get a dayco timing belt for 12.50 plus VAT, sound good? Just need the crankshaft fan belt pulley to come off now

[Crasher]

how do I get fan belt crank pulley off without rotating the crank?

Why does that matter? With the cam at 0 TDC just get on with it, if you are that worried back the cam bearings off, stop beating about the bush and get a hammer onto a 6-mm hex key in the head of the M8 crank bolts and give them a ********... If that fails, **** an M8 XZN in there and if that strips, aT45 Torx, get on with it! If that fails, drill the buggers out and take out the guts with some grips. They are supposed to be renewed anyway… part number N 103 036 07, 73p each…

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd20/Crasher1964/0491461_zps1ho7p4ue.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/Crasher1964/media/0491461_zps1ho7p4ue.jpg.html)

[mike199025q]

Okay managed to get it off, there was a bolt(behind the pulley for the belt cover) that could be seen through the pulley, I used a screw driver to wedge the pulley from moving and got the bolts out. I also took the cam pulley off put the belt on and put pulley back on, there was NO give in the belt, the belt was that tight it could be mistaken for being tensioned already, hopefully the new belt will go on easier lol. Plus the timing mark(tippex) on the crank pulley and the timing mark on the flywheel don't match, should I use the flywheel mark(as pictured in an earlier post) being as the flywheel can go on only one way?

Thank you for all the help by the way!

[Crasher]

You didn't take that 19-mm 12 point hex bolt out of the crank timing belt pulley did you? The flywheel and the poly V belt pulley have Zero TDC markers and you need to remove the 27-mm plastic plug to see the one on the flywheel. With that set to the pointer, the front pulley can be tightened up with its mark matching the arrow on the belt cover as it has quite a bit of play when loose. The relationship of crank to cam on the AKL is one of the easiest ones to set in the entire VAG range.

[mike199025q]

No I didn't take the 19mm out, I've also taken out the plastic plug, put a picture of the flywheel mark on the last page, the crank sprocket(one timing belt goes on) has a mark that doesn't match the flywheel mark so was wondering whether to go with the flywheel mark which is what I'm going to do.

[Crasher]

I cant find your flywheel picture. The TDC mark is just a very indistinct dot cast into the flywheel roughly half way in between two large machined ears which are for VW's own inductive timing sensor tool. The notch on the front pulley will align when the cast in pin on the gear is in the matching larger hole in the pulley and you can tweak it to align.

[mike199025q]

Dropbox - Photo 17-12-2016, 12 30 07.jpg (https://www.dropbox.com/s/6ch933bxph088ud/Photo%2017-12-2016%2C%2012%2030%2007.jpg?dl=0)

Dropbox - Photo 17-12-2016, 12 45 58.jpg (https://www.dropbox.com/s/7nijcgjostilfmw/Photo%2017-12-2016%2C%2012%2045%2058.jpg?dl=0)

I couldn't find any dot, just that line on the flywheel, but I seen those vw timing tool ears, and that line on the flywheel picture is within those ears but nothing else except that line that I can see

[Crasher]

yes 0 TDC not sure about BDC, cross check with the front pulley...

[mike199025q]

Is that line tdc? Can see through the spark plug hole and cylinder one and four are at the top. What I was saying was the tippex mark on the crankshaft sprocket doesn't match the flywheel mark, so when the sprocket is on the mark the flywheel isn't. Plus by the front pulley you mean the crankshaft fan belt pulley?

[Crasher]

It should not have a diamond groove which is a timing mark for cars with a dizzy, the zero mark is TDC#1 or #3, what determines things is where the cam is. You can check TDC 1/3 by having a probe through the plug hole onto the piston. This is a 16v but it is the same idea

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd20/Crasher1964/P1010009_zps3102c8bd.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/Crasher1964/media/P1010009_zps3102c8bd.jpg.html)

[mike199025q]

Thank you

Belt is on, lot of swear words later and it's on

Dropbox - Video 20-12-2016, 13 47 49.mov (https://www.dropbox.com/s/3smgz9zp31rbw9d/Video%2020-12-2016%2C%2013%2047%2049.mov?dl=0)

Look good?

[Crasher]

From what I can see it looks promising. When turned through a full cycle, do both the marks line up?

[mike199025q]

Yes pretty sure they line up, I turned crankshaft 4 full cycles(I'm a bit of a double check type of person) and it completed the turns(saying piston to valve contacted hasn't happened) and it's timed properly. Do I need to inspect the tensioner for anything?

[Crasher]

Once the tensioner is set it should not be adjusted again but I like to see the arrow in the middle of the set point. There is nothing wrong with double or even triple checking...

[mike199025q]

This is where that arrow is on mine

Dropbox - Photo 20-12-2016, 13 50 43.jpg (https://www.dropbox.com/s/gzov55q25myu7op/Photo%2020-12-2016%2C%2013%2050%2043.jpg?dl=0)

[Crasher]

I can't quite make it out but it looks a bit tight. This is sligly different but gives you the idea.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd20/Crasher1964/AWX-AVFtensioner.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/Crasher1964/media/AWX-AVFtensioner.jpg.html)

[mike199025q]

Okay done the tensioner

Dropbox - Photo 21-12-2016, 12 00 22.jpg (https://www.dropbox.com/s/84zbs6sgwobefoo/Photo%2021-12-2016%2C%2012%2000%2022.jpg?dl=0)

And yes the timing marks line up perfectly after turning twice. Job done? Lol

[mike199025q]

How far should the fan belt tensioner idler thing be from the timing belt central cover? If I look at mine from above it only has a small gap between it. However the bolts for the covers all went in easy so can't be the cover being too far out. Just making sure as got the consul(I hate that peice of ****) back in(had to take the fan belt tensioner back out to get it the consul back in) and don't want to build too much back incase it's not right

tensioner picture (https://www.dropbox.com/s/adwb0npkxac1can/Photo%2021-12-2016%2C%2013%2012%2055.jpg?dl=0)

[Crasher]

the consul(I hate that peice of ****)

You me and everyone who has ever changed a cambelt on a car with one, you should see the 9N3 Polo GTI set up on Mrs Crashers car, it is nearly impossible.

That tensioner looks OK but it is difficult to be sure from that angle.

[zollaf]

i undid one once, wriggled it a bit and it fell out. made the belt really simple. took 3 days to get the (enter what you want) back in.

[Crasher]

Me, a baseball bat, a locked room and the **** who designed that mount...:chairshot

[zollaf]

you wanna try the same mount on a hyundai santa fe. its bigger and wraps round the engine more but unless you remove it you cannot do a timing belt. you need to lift the engine but you cant get it high enough unless you remove the rear drive thingy from the gearbox as that hits on the subframe. i did one once, ended up having to angle grind a chunk off it to remove it, no way was i taking the gear box apart to do it, stupid stupid, more stuipid than vw designers.

[mike199025q]

The consul was a pain to get out but surprisingly easier to get in, the way I put it back in eventually was having to take the fan belt tensioner off and it just slid in quite easy, it is a pathetic badly designed piece of **** though!

In other news, because i started this about 2 years ago I've forgotten a few things when putting stuff back on like what do the bolts that bolt down the coolant flange look like and forgotten where some hoses go back etc. I've took a lot of pictures as I was taking things off but in my haste I've forgotten a few

[Crasher]

Give me a list and I will post the pics I have.

[mike199025q]

Dropbox - Photo 22-12-2016, 12 58 46.jpg (https://www.dropbox.com/s/1dxzoex1r26wx39/Photo%2022-12-2016%2C%2012%2058%2046.jpg?dl=0)

Dropbox - Photo 22-12-2016, 12 58 56.jpg (https://www.dropbox.com/s/okl43sm178tfi6z/Photo%2022-12-2016%2C%2012%2058%2056.jpg?dl=0)

Dropbox - Photo 22-12-2016, 13 13 21.jpg (https://www.dropbox.com/s/m3lf006rx5xhrfi/Photo%2022-12-2016%2C%2013%2013%2021.jpg?dl=0)

There's two hose connections to the throttle body, and one on the head/block underneath the throttle body rest of them are in pictures I think

[Crasher]

The first one goes to the breather valve on the throttle body to air cleaner pipe.

[mike199025q]

Thank you

Now it's just these

Dropbox - Photo 27-12-2016, 14 10 42.jpg (https://www.dropbox.com/s/yzaenpf1hrck80f/Photo%2027-12-2016%2C%2014%2010%2042.jpg?dl=0)

Dropbox - Photo 27-12-2016, 14 13 15.jpg (https://www.dropbox.com/s/der4sby103dwlrt/Photo%2027-12-2016%2C%2014%2013%2015.jpg?dl=0)

When I say goes into radiator, they run into the radiator. The red one at the moment is connected to underneath the TB, blue one is connected on the side of the cylinder head(only way I think those two hoses go, could be wrong)

Dropbox - Photo 27-12-2016, 14 14 49.jpg (https://www.dropbox.com/s/2jvw1z1nib09w0o/Photo%2027-12-2016%2C%2014%2014%2049.jpg?dl=0)


And lastly

Dropbox - Photo 27-12-2016, 14 49 20.jpg (https://www.dropbox.com/s/36iikf0zhe6s281/Photo%2027-12-2016%2C%2014%2049%2020.jpg?dl=0)

Looks like an Earth strap?

[Crasher]

The first one feeds the TB with water, the second is the return.

[mike199025q]

Okay so all in all there's three hoses into the TB, one on top one on the front and one at the side. Water hose into the head now it's just the Earth strap at the back

Also, what do the fasterners for the coolant flange look like?

[mike199025q]

I've got everything back together now, apart from the Earth strap at the back, Etka says it goes to the TB but where on the TB?

[mike199025q]

Engine back together and running

Still can't get that Earth strap anywhere as I don't know where it would go.

Engine got a misfire(probably the earth strap)

Dropbox - File 07-01-2017, 13 52 37.mov (https://www.dropbox.com/s/gh0x9vdt8s9x6r9/File%2007-01-2017%2C%2013%2052%2037.mov?dl=0)

Dropbox - File 07-01-2017, 13 56 32.mov (https://www.dropbox.com/s/izwkqkoku8sjr6s/File%2007-01-2017%2C%2013%2056%2032.mov?dl=0)

another video (https://www.dropbox.com/s/u53dw75gd1gc1gz/File%2007-01-2017%2C%2018%2044%2002.mov?dl=0)

Revving - video (https://www.dropbox.com/s/hw05emocrb1rxl5/File%2007-01-2017%2C%2014%2041%2018.mov?dl=0)

That noise seems to go away when the engine revving. That misfire needs sorting out. Compression tested the engine and it read about 195-200 on all

By the way I'm sorry for being such a pain lol it's just so long ago I took engine bits

[Crasher]

Difficult to be sure from that but it sounds like unmetered air is getting in.

[mike199025q]

Running too lean then would make sense as I noticed when putting it back on that the air filter to throttle body hose had a bit of hose going to the oil filler cap was broke so air will be getting in that way. Not sound like rod knock or piston slap? They are my ultimate worst nightmare for the amount of work I've put in it, and as I put a thin layer of oil around the cylinder walls on each cylinder would that of burnt off in matter of minutes?

[Crasher]

Knockers are deadly, that will eat a hole in a piston in seconds, slappers are fine, they can keep going for years, in fact a good slapper can provide years of pleasure...:naughty:

[mike199025q]

Haha! Are you meaning mechanical talk at the end of your message or something else? 😂 So as the knock is out the question it leaves slap or the air leak, as this is my first engine rebuild ever I'm just anxious about things

[Crasher]

The AKL can suffer a bit of slap and you have honed the bores if I remember so as long as it shuts up when warm it should be OK. Some batches of the smaller EA111 engines over the years have had terrible problems with unbelievable piston slap but it hardly ever seems to cause a problem. I have had a couple of 1.6 16v's with high oil consumption and that's all. Slap they may do but they keep running, nothing wrong with an old slapper as long as it keeps going...

[mike199025q]

Okay that's fine then, so that noise is the piston slapping in the video then? That noise seems to go when I rev it. As there is unmetered air going into the engine it's running lean and as soon as I put revs on it, the misfire seems to stop, all in the videos

However when I was installing pistons back in, it seemed very snug, and when I turned the crankshaft, the pistons was pushing all the oil up the cylinder wall(put a smear of oil around the walls) in other words I didn't think the pistons was a bit too small for the bore. Also, when I was turning(starter motor) the car over with the plugs out, there was no knock or noise

[Crasher]

No THAT noise is tappet lash, what make of tappets did you fit?

Pistons felt snug? So by hand you can tell the difference between a wall clearance of 0.020 and 0.025 mm?

[mike199025q]

It's the original ones, how would I get tappet lash sorted then? And yeah I'm glad there's nothing major wrong with the rebuild and no if only I could would make things so much easier lol

[Crasher]

By replacing the lifters as I have been going on about from post 23…

[mike199025q]

Okay, there is a little smoke out the exhaust, I'm guessing the lambda and/or the cat needs replacing also because of the burning oil before the rebuild

[mike199025q]

Was testing each cylinder by removing each HT Lead and got a bloody shock, wasn't pleasant.

Not as easy as the 1.8t AUM(my last car) as was easier to determine which cylinder was misfiring with the coil over plug instead of HT leads, anyway. Seems to be quiter now

Dropbox - File 11-01-2017, 13 38 05.mov (https://www.dropbox.com/s/gzi33fd94m1f0zy/File%2011-01-2017%2C%2013%2038%2005.mov?dl=0)

Dropbox - File 11-01-2017, 13 40 24.mov (https://www.dropbox.com/s/x87mwca3bwstxvr/File%2011-01-2017%2C%2013%2040%2024.mov?dl=0)

[Crasher]

Ahh man up lad, what are yeh, man or mice....:kabong:

[mike199025q]

Hahaha 😂I'm a man anyway but would be impossible to be a mice, as mice is more than one mouse haha only joking, was thinking before not saying this is the case but is it possible the top piston ring can come out of the piston in engines and is loose within the cylinder bore when engine has already been running? My dad brought this up and I'm pretty sure it couldn't because of the pressure and tension etc. Just trying to clear an arguement up haha

[Crasher]

mices, more than one mouse or is that mice, or a nest of mices, mice, mouses, squeaky things that my cat likes. No, I can't see that happening to the ring, rings....

[mike199025q]

No just mice is plural mice for more than one and mouse for one lol and can't see it happening even if they was installed incorrectly? Either way arguement solved lol

[mike199025q]

Okay turns out the unmetered air was the little hose to air filter to TB hose. I forgot it, oops.

Dropbox - File 12-01-2017, 14 20 02.mov (https://www.dropbox.com/s/uvgr4bjq6osx4yk/File%2012-01-2017%2C%2014%2020%2002.mov?dl=0)

Sound good?

Now the exhaust smoke,

Dropbox - File 12-01-2017, 14 15 21.mov (https://www.dropbox.com/s/adewlaxw5nlni01/File%2012-01-2017%2C%2014%2015%2021.mov?dl=0)

Dropbox - File 12-01-2017, 14 16 58.mov (https://www.dropbox.com/s/768hmcpcuc4ncn4/File%2012-01-2017%2C%2014%2016%2058.mov?dl=0)

O2 sensor? Cat?

[Crasher]

Have you watched the Lambada ;) signal dancing aroun?

[mike199025q]

Not yet no, I've lost my cable, another one on way

[mike199025q]

The car is now ready for its MOT, other day whilst looking into a cylinder, i noticed the wall was like a mirror finish(shiny) this mean the rings have been bedded in?

[Crasher]

More that the bores are glazed and this will encourage oil consumption.

[mike199025q]

More that the bores are glazed and this will encourage oil consumption.I deglazed them though before fitting rings, how can they be glazed already?

[Crasher]

Which oil did you use?

[mike199025q]

Which oil did you use?I used Millers CRO

[Crasher]

For how long or are you still on it? Do you have a picture of the bores after you honed them, they should have had a satin finish with a 45 degree cross hatch using a 220 ish grit stone and looked like this

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd20/Crasher1964/bored%20and%20honed_zpsudgbuk8m.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/Crasher1964/media/bored%20and%20honed_zpsudgbuk8m.jpg.html)

This are good original bores

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd20/Crasher1964/80%20grit%20to%20block%20top_zps4c0bt3lw.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/Crasher1964/media/80%20grit%20to%20block%20top_zps4c0bt3lw.jpg.html)

[mike199025q]

Yes still running that oil not done any miles just been letting it idle and occasionally revving it. No blue smoke just like a white steam/smoke from exhaust that smells like fuel,o2 sensor? And posted the pics of the honed cylinder on this thread and was told they are good

[Aldino]

Crasher, you're God sent. Thanks for keeping this thread active with continuous positive and to the T advice.

I'm about to embark on the same journey. Hoping it won't take 2 years🙈

[Crasher]

Me, positive, that's a first....:biglaugh: