1997 Polo 6N 1.6 engine cuts out while driving

[MarjolijnW]

Hi guys,
I'm new here, if I put this post in the wrong section, please let me know.
I drive a manual Polo 6N 1.6L from 1997 and this morning the engine just cut out out of nowhere, while driving. I had driven about 5 miles and while at about 20 mph after driving away from a light, the radio stopped playing and I felt the car slow down. The battery light was switched on, no other lights on the dashboard.
I figured I should just put the car in neutral, restart and get going again. That didn't work, it just wouldn't start. The dash lights switched on like they always do when starting the engine, the start engine sounded normal, but the engine wouldn't get going. A colleague helped me push my car into the parking lot.
When the repair service tried my car 45 minutes later, it started without any problems. They couldn't diagnose the problem. Driving home in the afternoon went fine as well.
What could cause this problem? My car has no other engine problems like weird smells, sounds, or odd shifts in RPM. It had regular maintenance only a few months ago and the filters and spark plugs (http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=spark+plugs) were replaced.
Any help will be highly appreciated!
Cheers,
Marjolijn

[Doctle Odd]

Get a diagnostic scan

[Flash2]

The battery light was switched on, no other lights on the dashboard.

When you say the battery light was on and all the other warning lights were off, was the engine still running at that point? If that's the case it sounds like the instrument cluster's power supply went open circuit.
Since the radio and I assume the ignition system were also effected, I'd be looking for a poor connection on the ignition switch or in the ignition switch main power supply wiring.
Check connector H1 on the back of the dashboard fusebox. That is the wiring from the steering column including the ignition switch wiring. (Heavy red on terminal 2 is ign switch supply)

Jim.

[MarjolijnW]

Hi guys,
Thank you for replying so quickly!
@Doctle Odd: I'll get that scan ASAP and post the results.


When you say the battery light was on and all the other warning lights were off, was the engine still running at that point?
@Jim: no the engine wasn't running anymore, it just cut out in the middle of the road. The battery light surprised me because I had a new battery put in less than 6 months ago. Now I'm afraid I'll have to ask a bit of a noob question: how do I know which connector is H1? Does it simply say 'H1' on it, or should I get a diagram of the electrics to find out which one it is? If I need a diagram, where could I get one?

Marjolijn

[Doctle Odd]

I'd get the scan don e before starting to randomly "fix" things. Look on this map for someone near you with VCDS they will scan the car for a few beer tokens maybe for free, VWAF User Location Map - VCDS - Google Maps (https://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?msid=209563024277134815192.0004c505be14b22419db e&msa=0&ll=56.231139,-2.779541&spn=3.493691,10.821533&iwloc=0004c505cfcb6158e0447&dg=feature)

[Flash2]

Hey there Marjolijn.


The battery light being on when the engine had stopped is normal. So what I said above about the ignition switch supply isn't relative to your fault. But to answer your question, yes, the connectors on the back of the fusebox are marked (image below).


I've had a quick scan of the circuit diagram and can't see anything obvious that would cause the engine and radio to cut out together. They don't directly share any power supplies or earths. So, follow the advice of Doctle Odd and get a diag scan done and let us know what is says.


Jim.

http://www.bentleypublishers.com/images//tech/vw/97-3001.gif

[MarjolijnW]

Hi guys!
Thank you for your quick replies again! :D
Like you both say I won't touch a thing until I get the scan done.
@Doctle Odd: thanks for the map! Unfortunately I'm afraid I won't be able to go to any of the places shown on it. The closest one is about 100km away and I'm afraid my car might not make it. Luckily my local garage seems to do diagnostics scans too so I'll call them first thing in the morning.
@Jim: thanks for the explanation about the connectors and the battery light. Is it unusual that the electric bits switch off when the engine cuts out? I was too surprised (and a little scared, to be honest) to really pay attention but I think the ventilation cut out as well.
Cheers,
Marjolijn

[Flash2]

Is it unusual that the electric bits switch off when the engine cuts out?

Yeah, it is.

[MarjolijnW]

Hi guys!
These were the fault codes the garage read:
- no power to fuel injectors
- too high lambda value (they told me this means there was too little fuel in the combustion mixture, I had no idea that that was lambda)
So they went ahead and checked the wires, cleaned the contacts, sprayed contact spray on them and put fuel cleaner in the tank.
It makes sense to me that when there's no power to the fuel injectors, the engine doesn't get fuel and shuts down. I hope the cleaning and spraying will stop this from happening again, but I think it all sounds very logical so I guess it should. Do you guys think there's anything else I should do right now?
Cheers,
Marjolijn

[Bill1]

Hello,
I'm new here primarily because my wife had exactly the same trouble as this with a similar car (Polo, 6N, 1.6 Auto, 1998) and I'm searching for solutions. Did you ever get to the crux of the problem? Her car has cut out several times now, all electrics go off (although I have never been in the car when it has happened) lights, power steering, radio, engine all dead. It always happens during heavy rain or just after heavy rain when there is standing water.

During my investigations I found that the control board for the central locking motor was virtually submerged in water. I whipped the central locking pump out fairly sharpish and the problem hasn't happened since but we haven't had any rain since (we live in Cyprus).

If someone could come up with an answer for this I would be eternally grateful because this failure is potentially a killer (No brake lights, no hazard warning lights, nada.

Thanks

Bill

[SammoVWT]

Ignition coil?

[Crasher]

THE most common cause of this on cars with the particular part is, as Sammo says, the ignition coil or Transformer as VW call it. It used to be such a problem that I would keep two in stock but now not such a problem as most of these cars have gone. Avoid white box rubbish, of the aftermarket ones, Beru are the best.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd20/Crasher1964/6N0905104coil.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/Crasher1964/media/6N0905104coil.jpg.html)

[SammoVWT]

I am debating putting fitting a heatsink underneath the coil as I had to buy a genuine one a few months back for the best part of £140, the number one reason why these things die is heat. The one I got from ECP was dead out the box..

I just think they didn't take it into account at the time, someone did some sums and decided it was cheaper to just keep the same pattern than improve it. I'm sure Crasher will agree that maintaining the rest of the ignition components will extend the life of these parts dramatically. Keep your plug changes almost as regular as your oil changes.

I stick to new plugs every two changes - and wires every 4 more or less. Works out at about plugs every 6k and oil 3, wires 12k. You can eek it out longer, but id rather spend £20 on some plugs more often than £150 every 6-12 months on top of everything else through lack of maintenance..

Visual inspection on the distributor cap, checking for scorch/soot marks, or pitting on the cap terminal poles. Clean cap with contact cleaner and such like dry and refit.

A lot of this gets forgotten about with so many cars doing the thinking for you. Always gets forgotten about these days imo

[Bill1]

Thanks for your insight guys. I am having the devils own job finding the correct spare parts for this car here in Cyprus (everything is difficult here). Last week I bashed off the front disks only to find that the new disks (and pads) were for the wrong car. Off course, I was a bit of a prune for not checking more carefully before doing the deed but I thought, wrongly, that having provided the chassis number and they guy dutifully typing it in to his confuser that everything would be fine.

This car was originally for the Japanese market, was eventually clocked and shipped back to Cyprus (a common scam). The vehicle owes me nothing as someone gave it to me as a dead loss. It is a brilliant little car to drive on the odd occasion that it runs and is perfect for the wife as she is the same.

I must say that I would never consider buying a VW after doing battle with this MoFo due to the terrible build quality in everything from door locks to window seals.

I'm willing to spend a few bob fixing everything that I can, though, because cars are so damn expensive here if I can source parts.

[Crasher]

The build quality of the Polo 6N1 was not great, in fact it was pretty awful by VW's standards BUT then you have to consider it was not built by VW in Germany but by Seat in Spain and it is only in the last decade that Seat has dug itself out of a huge poor quality pit similar to what British built cars suffered in the 1970/80's. Seat are pretty good on build quality now, I don't have any complaints BUT they are not up to the level of Skoda yet, mind you neither are Audi and VW for that matter.

[Doctle Odd]

At the same time it's a free car hard to criticise that! Simply return the discs for the correct ones, fit them and drive off in your stoppable Polo

[SammoVWT]

Thanks for your insight guys. I am having the devils own job finding the correct spare parts for this car here in Cyprus (everything is difficult here). Last week I bashed off the front disks only to find that the new disks (and pads) were for the wrong car. Off course, I was a bit of a prune for not checking more carefully before doing the deed but I thought, wrongly, that having provided the chassis number and they guy dutifully typing it in to his confuser that everything would be fine.

This car was originally for the Japanese market, was eventually clocked and shipped back to Cyprus (a common scam). The vehicle owes me nothing as someone gave it to me as a dead loss. It is a brilliant little car to drive on the odd occasion that it runs and is perfect for the wife as she is the same.



I must say that I would never consider buying a VW after doing battle with this MoFo due to the terrible build quality in everything from door locks to window seals.

I'm willing to spend a few bob fixing everything that I can, though, because cars are so damn expensive here if I can source parts.

You might be better off grabbing them from european suppliers online and having them shipped in. You'll probably have better luck that way than your local counterparts. It does mean waiting, but at least you are more likely to get better parts and the correct ones if you do the research on the parts first. All these cars have exploded diagrams you can cross-reference part numbers with.

[Crasher]

This problem with Polo 6N front discs is common as some have 239x10's and others 239x18's but the secret here is it being a Japanese spec 1.6, these had 256x20 front discs as used on the UK spec 1.4 16v and the same disc as used on the late Golf 2 16v. Most part suppliers (including those in mainland Europe) would use the cars details in a typical parts reference system....... and get it wrong.....! The VW part number used is 6N0 615 301 D and is was previously part number 321 615 301 D. According to my system, at least 77 disc brands show this part such as the OE supplier ATE's 24.0120-0128.1.

[Bill1]

You sir, are a genius.

I need some further assistance from you learned ones. When her indoors drove me to the curry house last night there was a noise coming from the back end that sounded like a cross between a banshee on speed and a dozen mating cats. It wasn't like a traditional wheel bearing rumble but the pitch did vary with the speed of the road wheels. I'm thinking that, given the state of the front disks and pads (pads down to the metal and beyond), that the back shoes will be in a shocking state too. Anyway, so the old girl doesn't kill herself I'm going to embark on changing the shoes and probably the bearings as well if I can find the bits.

Could you possibly consult your documentation and point me in the direction of the correct part numbers please? I'd be eternally grateful and there may even be a few beer chits in it for you :)

thanks

Bill

[SammoVWT]

Sounds like a wheel bearing, if its more like a droning noise. Not sure if the shoes can go far enough to go metal to metal without any brakes being applied and no handbrake on.

[Crasher]

Febi Bilstein have a brilliant set of kits for the back of your car which I love fitting. These are my prices including UK VAT but not carriage to Cyprus.

Shoes and cylinders kit £65
Drums £20 each
Wheel bearings £10 each
Stub axle £20 each

All you would need to add to this is bolts for the stub axles if you decided to change. These parts would mean that apart from two washers, two nuts and the back plates, every single part was new.


http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd20/Crasher1964/Febi%2037545%20kit_zpsbfrvbq1y.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/Crasher1964/media/Febi%2037545%20kit_zpsbfrvbq1y.jpg.html)
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd20/Crasher1964/Febi%2002123%20drum_zpsvv73wsk4.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/Crasher1964/media/Febi%2002123%20drum_zpsvv73wsk4.jpg.html)
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd20/Crasher1964/Febi%2003674%20kit_zpsbzjx2wpd.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/Crasher1964/media/Febi%2003674%20kit_zpsbzjx2wpd.jpg.html)
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd20/Crasher1964/Febi%2008340%20stub%20axle_zpso3vpe9gl.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/Crasher1964/media/Febi%2008340%20stub%20axle_zpso3vpe9gl.jpg.html)

[Bill1]

Crasher,

That's truly brilliant. Thank you. This will be stored for definite future use. The latest is that, along with getting sunburn on my head while inspecting the car this morning and checking out the bearings and brakes, I found both rear tyres were shot in a way that I personally have never seen before. The wear pattern was quite bizarre with certain complete widths of the back tyres being legal while other patches were as bald as my head. Basically, neither of the back tyres were round.

I made a quick trip to my friend Marios-the-wheel got two fairly decent new tyres fitted for €80 including valves, balancing and disposal. The car is now running like new with all noises and vibration eliminated.

It aint likely to rain till November so I'll give you an update then.

cheers

Bill

[MarjolijnW]

Hey guys!
Sadly the first things the garage did to stop my little Polo cutting out only worked for a little while, cleaning the wires wasn't enough. It worked for a bit but then one evening it really wouldn't start anymore at all. Roadside services visited and diagnosed that there was no electricity going to the fuel pump. They improvised with a wire so I was able to drive to the garage. Those guys found out it was the relay to the fuel pump. They popped in a new one and my car has been fine ever since!
Cheers,
Marjolijn

[Crasher]

It is very rare these days to have a relay fail, I can't remember that last time I had one fail.

[SammoVWT]

I replaced mine last year as it was starting to fail - i think they are just failing on age now. Hes going through all the little bits I had to do more or less

[Bill1]

Crasher,

I wonder if you can help me again please? I work 24 hour shifts (yes, you read right) so I haven't been home yet so haven't inspected the damage. The missus phoned me up at work yesterday all shocked, upset and teary. The car (6N1, OC3, 55 EU2, AUT with AH5 engine WUWzzz6NzXY381439) blew up at traffic lights in Larnaca yesterday. Her phone had also failed so she was in a bit of a mess with nice locals refusing to help her. I've been racking my brains all night thinking what could have happened. I'm eventually coming down on the side of the Air Con compressor throwing a wobbly and venting freon (she said the air con had stopped working prior to the incident). When she tried to pull away at the lights there was a loud bang and a terrible smell of burning oil. My problem is this, I still haven't been able to source any parts reliably for this car. Whenever I enter details of the car into eBay, for example, it invariably tells me the part does not fit my car almost regardless of what the part is. Whether it is the compressor or something more serious I will still need to get parts. Could you please point me in the direction where I could find the correct bits and pieces for this Japanese spec car???? I've just tried to add a photo of the sticker from under the boot carpet but it is too large!!!

Thanks, in advance, for your help mate. I tried to send you a PM too but the system wouldn't let me.

cheers

Bill

[Crasher]

First of all you need to establish exactly what is wrong, the car in question can suffer from failure of the thermostat bridge and this can stop the cooling fan working, overheat the system and in exceptional circumstances, over pressurise the AC system which can blow. Disconnect the compressor by removing the poly V belt (the water pump is cam belt driven) and run the car up watching the temp and feeling the coolant hoses. If the top gets hot and the bottom stays cold as the car starts to get over normal temp, then it is likely that the bridge has failed and the best solution is a new housing unit as the thermostat can get damaged by the overheating plus just fitting a new top is very fiddly. When we know what is wrong, then we can source the parts and I may be able to get them for you.

[Bill1]

Crasher,

The story so far.....I gets home this morning and pops the bonnet. Zero water in the car unsurprisingly as there was a large hole in the plastic thermostat housing. I whipped that off in like 2 and a half hours using my Swiss army knife tool kit and whizzed to the scrappy. Amazingly he had a Polo engine amongst all the other carp. It wasn't the same but close enough for government work. I'm guessing the thermostat in mine was cooked so i used the one from the scrap car. Put my other original sensors back and fitted it all. Now it is still overheating and the fan doesn't turn. When turning the fan manually (burning my pinkies in the process) it makes a disturbing clicking sound and is hard to turn. Me thinks this is not kosher. Also, the air con clutch is cycling wildly which is probably right with no fan. I've also got leaks now from where the two sensors go at the opposite end of the stat. I have no idea what these sensors do but i guess one sends an incorrect temperature to the guage and the other actuates the fan via a hidden relay????? I'm totally kerfuffled now and her indoors is behaving like someone close has died. It looks like an absolute nightmare to remove the fan and i cant budge the three wire connector anyway. If you could give me some direction to keeping this beast running i will gladly have your babies. If only everything in life was as reliable as a volkswaggen eh?

Ps. Only fault indication is a solid abs light which i assume is unrelated? However, i have quickly found that, due to the ingenuity of these German dudes, one should never assume anything!

Cheers mate

Bill

Sent from my LG-D802 using Tapatalk

[Crasher]

Get the correct housing on it, yes the fan not working will upset the AC comp.

[Bill1]

Hi Crasher,

Thanks for reply. As far as i can tell the housing is identical. The only difference was that the one i sourced had some blanking type plates fitted where i have sensors. I did notice, however, that the one from the scrappy had quite alot of gungy sealant type stuff around all o rings. I cleaned this off which was possibly a bad move.

I think we have decided between us to scrap this brute before it starts costing us real money. The list of faults is growing and growing and plastic parts disintegrate if you look at them twice. Shame really. It drives beautifully now when it works but i doubt we could trust it again.

Cheers

Bill

Sent from my LG-D802 using Tapatalk

[Bill1]

Just checked housing it is same part number as one i removed 032 121 111. I am going to give this car one last chance. I am almost certain it is the radiator fan that has caused all the problems. I want to take it off but cant shift the three pin connector. I'm guessing there is a trick? Leaks from sensor housings will likely be cured by new o rings as the old ones are deformed. Any idea what the resistance across the two pins of the coolant warning light sensor should be? This one seems short curcuit when cold and hot. It doesn't light the light when it certainly should. First and biggest problem though is getting the fan connector undone.

Cheers

Bill

[Crasher]

Which sensor do you mean, fan switch in the radiator, coolant temp sender in the plastic housing or water level sensor in the header tank?

[Bill1]

There are two sensors towards the radiator end of the plastic thermostat housing. One is four connectors the other one is two connectors. I think the one with the two connectors lights the coolant temperature warning lamp. This is the one that has zero ohms resistance between the two terminals whether the car is cooking, cold or the sensor is out of the car completely. It looks like most of the sensors dont work or the ECU is shot. Nothing makes any sense.

Cheers

Bill

Sent from my LG-D802 using Tapatalk

[Bill1]

There is also some kind of sensor at the top of the header tank. It has a pipe coming away from it that splits two ways. In my car one of the branches disappears under the bottom of the windscreen. The other is just dangling in space under the bonnet. I know not where it goes. The pipe is plastic but covered in some kind of material. Very thin.

Sent from my LG-D802 using Tapatalk

[Crasher]

Nothing makes any sense I have that feeling every morning but after I take my medication and down a couple of coffee's, it starts to subside...

Your engine code is AHS and your gearbox code is DPN and also, it is a 1999 model, not a 1997!
The coolant shortage indicator sensor is called G32 and is a non-replaceable integral component of the coolant header tank.
The coolant temperature sender for the engine temp in the instruments is called G2 and the sender for the engine computer is called G62, these are in a combined in a 20-mm sender unit with 4 pins and black in colour with a blue identification band, VW part number 6U0 919 501 B. Some replacement sensors come with a yellow band.
The coolant housing you need is VW number 032 121 111 N,

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd20/Crasher1964/032121111Ncoolanthousing_zps4d20b1fd.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/Crasher1964/media/032121111Ncoolanthousing_zps4d20b1fd.jpg.html)

this only has one sender in it and the spare position is blanked off with a removable plug. Quality new housings come complete with sensor. The fan is controlled by the radiator fan control unit which gets its signals from the dual temp sender in the radiator and from the air conditioning system.

[Bill1]

Thanks Crasher,

Yes, I think the OP's model is 1997 which is where the confusion arises. I mistakenly said ours was 1998 in an earlier post too just to muddy the waters. But yes, you are correct this is a 1999 model. Still no further forward with this. It has been at a repair shop for 3 days now. I wait with bated breath.

Cheers

Bill

[Bill1]

So,

It turns out to be just the cooling fan. I toddled off after my shift to visit the guy at the repair shop who asked me if I had found a fan. "What fan?" I asks." One to replace this" he says as he stuffs the old one into my grubby mits. Off I go trying to source a radiator cooling fan with half a part number. No luck anywhere some were close but not quite. I eventually called the main ******* who gleefully told me they wanted €561 for a new fan. After the smelling salts had been administered and I picked myself up off the floor I went home, hacked the back plate off the old fan, fixed the dry joints and the blown capacitor, cleaned the thing up a bit, welded the back plate back on and away we go.

What next, I wonder.

Bill

[Crasher]

And this shows the benefits of living in a mainland country where the fan from all sorts of aftermarket suppliers such as Febi is cheap. Where you are you have to either dig deep or become a proper mechanic and fix things which I sort of like but I don't have the time.