BiTDI

[AudiInNZ]

Hi,
I currently drive a BMW 535d and love the twin turbo engine in it. I am ordering an A6 Avant BiTDI and wonder about the lag I read about in some reviews.

Can anyone comment how the engine/transmission compare with the 535d I am familiar with?

Thanks

[jbanfie]

Hi,

I can't comment on the difference between a 535d and the BiTurbo Audi as I've never driven the 535d, but here are some thoughts on the Audi BiTurbo:

The lag is more down to the Auto transmission than the engine. At modest revs the small turbo is delivering half boost as seen on my laptimer display, and the pick up is terrific.

What is bad is the kick down which really takes the sting out of an overtaking manoeuvre, mine has kicked down from 2nd to 1st and that was a big surprise.

There's a couple of things here, firstly when not in 'sports', briefly pulling back on the gear leaver shifts you straight to sports mode, which generally kicks the gears down one or even two, but you will still get a kick down if you plant your foot, and maybe the best thing is not to do that.

Second if you pull on the manual paddles, it goes into manual control, but I think I've still had a kick down occur when planting the foot.

Third if you put the gear leaver over to the manual position and then either use it or the paddles, you actually get control, although it does upshift when you hit the limiter, which is nice.

I'm not convinced the engine and gearbox mappings have been thought through that well, as there is so much torque there is no need to kick down and the kick down takes so long, any advantage of the lower gear is probably lost, especially when it has to change up again when the revs reach the limit. Kicking down to first is a bit of a joke!

I kind of wonder if VCDS can be used to change the kick down behaviour, and I need to experiment more to trully establish the behaviour patterns in each mode/gear etc etc. That for me is the biggest problem, you never quite know what is going to happen, and that removes the confidence for the overtake!

That said, when you do go to manual control, and shift down so the revs are mid range or so, it goes like stink, with no noticeable turbo lag at all, because they are spinning well by that point anyway.

I'd be interested to hear other people opinions on this, and indeed some views on the 535d, which I only rejected because it's rear wheel drive

[AudiInNZ]

Thanks, that is interesting. Like you, I am looking at the A6 because of 4 wheel drive.

The BMW 535d doesn't seem to have any issue engine vs transmission. The two work together perfectly. I just leave it in D and never really notice what exactly is going on, even at kickdown.

Disappointing that the same isn't true with the Audi. Like you say, it does sound like something that could be fixed by a software improvement...

Thanks for the detailed feedback.

[jbanfie]

Maybe I'm overly critical of the behaviour as this is my first proper automatic car, it will be interesting to hear your opinions when you get the Audi having then owned both!

[robbyg]

I have driven both cars this year (530d SE and 535D Msport both 8 speed). The BMW actually has the same gbox (ZF) as the A6 bi tdi but mapped differently. Google ZF 8 speed and find out all sorts.

I agree with john above bitdi is abit slushy in the lower gears and does sometimes kick down when it really didnt need to, that certainly contributes to a feeling of lag. To be fair i leave mine in D nearly all the time and its fine. If i want to do a fast overtake i usually drop a couple of gears manually first with the paddles. Its abit slower off a standing start than the BMW and than a Stronic audi gearbox as it allows more slippage. Once you are on the move it makes lovely crisp changes, same as the bmw and better than the audi S tronic. I havent yet tried building torque against the footbrake in a launch control style in case i break something, i tried it in an A5 3.0tdi stronic courtesty car last week - christ it jumped from 0-40 in what felt like a second.

Putting it into manual gives you total control (unlike some other makes). I have tested the true turbo lag at various engine speeds, there is upto a second gap between flooring the pedal and receiving full torque, but this is no different than any other modern turbo diesel engines. If you go from no throttle to lots there will always be turbo lag, if you go from part throttle to lots it is negligible. Best thign about the bitdi is it give huge torque from about 1200rpm.

I posted various videos on youtube a few weeks back, these show how it works in normal driving, serach for a6 bi tdi, my user name on there is robbybobbyg or similar.

[AudiInNZ]

Thanks for your comments, very interesting.

I will let you all know how I find my new car. First of course they need to build it....

At this stage I have a delivery date of end of Jan 2013. I think I ended up with a spec not a lot different from RobbyG. Boy, the options add up quickly. I would have loved the B&O upgrade but at $15,000 NZ$ ($US 12,000) it is insane.

A previous car was an E46 M3 with the 1st gen SMG transmission. That was a great car but the SMG was useless as an auto. The only way to drive smoothly was with the paddles. In auto, it was like "Is this a joke? Has it had a major system failure? No, that is how it is supposed to be...".

Since then I have driven various cars with the dual clutch transmissions and they have been great.

Anyway, back to the A6. I will check out the videos on YouTube. Need to do something while I wait :-)

[DBLincoln]

Hi Guys

I slot straight in here..................I have had 2 BWM 535d' SE & still currently have a 2009 M Sport. The latest was remapped and also had a tuning box fitted to it. 342 bhp and 720 nm, really quick and for some reason each time we increased the power output the fuel consumption went down as well.............overall 8 mpg better off. Performance was incredible and the only thing that let it down were the brakes when being pushed (which I did often).

I have just taken delivery of an A7 biturbo and although early days I have to say how much I like the car over the BMW. I have added 20” Alloys, Air Suspension, the Sport Differential and dynamic steering along with upgrade to Bose (the surround sound is amazing if you source 5.1 DVD’s). I have also added soft close doors and the active headlights.

So early days and yes I can see the performance differences. I went to an Audi Driving day at Silverstone Race Track and got to understand a lot of the cars features. I overcome the ‘lag’ by using the ‘paddles’ but really it was not that was intruding in the first place.

I have spoken to a ‘specialist’ remapping firm, as apposed as out of the box remapping and they have already played with the engine. They are saying 385 bhp and 760 nm, but what they have also found is that the ‘lag’ has disappeared and mid-range grunt is superb. I am going to resist temptation until 3000 miles on the clock.

So driving the Audi in comparison to the BWM; the Audi is in a league of its own. Much better balanced and one thing that I have really noticed is the fact that it appears slower until you look at the Speed and has caught me out a couple of times when I simply did not know I was going that fast and roundabouts loom up fast………………….honest officer!

Across country it covers the ground quickly, the sports diff does make a big difference and cornering is no drama. I am simply amazed at just how quick and smooth they are. Not as good on fuel as the BMW buy about 8 miles per gallon, but early days and if I am honest is same as the BMW was before the tuning.

Couple of nags………….CD and DVD’s do not copy to the Juxbox (hard drive in the car) something to do with copyright. The other bug is that you need a sim card in the car to get Audi Connect and Google Earth Maps but cannot run an iPhone at the same time. I am told this is an Apple problem. So it either Google Maps and no phone or via versa. Works fien with an android!!

Exhaust sound is to die for………..

Will update when I have had the remap done.

Best wishes

DBLincoln

[jbanfie]

DBLincoln welcome and thanks for that detailed description, very interesting that you ended up virtually with the same options as myself - just don't get a towbar fitted by PF Jones as they don't understand Air Suspension well enough, unless you live near wiltshire where you can get it fixed for free!

Do you have details of your remapping firm, I would be interested in hearing more about that

Also, I take it you have the Head Up Display, and I would recommend getting the laptimer enabled which is a quick job with VCDS (gives you boost gauge, oil temp and a timer!), if you are ever near Somerset I can sort that for you.

Cheers

Jon

[robbyg]

thanks DB, nice to hear another viewpoint. Pleased you are enjoying your car too.

i am trying to convince myself there is no need to re-map this car. i have had my previous 3 cars done. no need no need no need no need (head rocking backwards and forwards........)

let me know how you get on.

[DBLincoln]

Hi Robby

I have tried tuning boxes and remapping and both! Found (out of the box) remapping alone did not give the fuel savings that fitting the box does. Bespoke remapping done by a specialist, as opposed to someone who simply send the map away to get it modified, has produced far better results both performance as well as economy.................perhaps a half way house if simply the box that can then be taken off for servicing/warranty work ect.

I have a motorhome, van and other cars............and all run boxes not so much for increase performance but the fuel saving........7 mpg better in the motorhome.

Have a look at this article: Audi 3.0 BiTDI Biturbo Diesel Engine Boosted by B&B to 390 HP - autoevolution (http://www.autoevolution.com/news/audi-30-bitdi-biturbo-diesel-engine-boosted-by-b-b-to-390-hp-42466.html)

Mine will not be so extreme, but first I might just try the box .....................and later the remap.

I liked what Jon said in fitting the VCDS and think I will explore this.

Just enjoying the car at present.

Kind regards

David
A7, BiTdi S Line
Air Suspension, Sports Diff, Dynamic Steering, 20” Alloys, Adaptive LED Headlights, Bose 5.1 Surround Sound, Insulating & Privacy Glass, Adaptive Cruise (leap of faith), Ambient Lighting, 4 zone heating, Heated Front & Rear Seats, Power Door Closure, Park Assist.

[jbanfie]

Hi David,

You don't need to fit VCDS, it's computer software that you run on a PC, but a specialist cable is required to plug the car to a laptop. This 'kit' costs 269 quid or there abouts see ilexa home page (http://www.ilexa.co.uk/)

To get the laptimer, you just need to connect and set one bit in the instrumentation electronics module - it takes less than a minute.

Therefore if you are not bothered about on going investigation of the cars electronics, you just need a friend with VCDS to lend you some time and expertise - I suspect a beer is the right kind of price to pay!

[AudiInNZ]

Thanks all, I can't wait to get my new car! January sounds a long way away. With luck it should be being built now.

At least now I have to stop worrying about what options I got or didn't get....

[DBLincoln]

Thank you for this..........................

David

[casto]

Hi all. I'm new to this forum. Coming from an A6 (C6) 3,0 T to my present BiTdi. I have noticed the same lag described by Jon an my guess is that it is caused by the mapping. My old car had a much quicker throttle response and felt quicker. Still the BiTdi is a beast but I am seriously thinking about taking my car to ABT or MTM for tuning. I hope this will solve the issue.

[a8toa6convert]

I'm sure jbanfie is right, that the hesitation on kickdown - the sense of pausing to gather breath and then surging forwards - is down to Audi's programming of gear change parameters on the 8 speed box rather than the engine. While I owned a 3.0tdi A6 with S-tronic, I tried an A8 with the 4.2tdi engine and the 8 speed conventional auto as fitted to the A6 bitdi, and I found that that A8 had the same issue: needless multiple downchanges on a medium to heavy prod of the throttle in D, with a sense of hesitation caused by the engine management trying to make it all as smooth as possible.

[KAM]

Hi

I've no axe to grind here and I may be speaking out of turn (apologies if so) but isn't the hesitance (for some =smoothness) much of what an Audi is about? I'm not a car enthusiast, alloy wheels do nothing for me, I've never pushed any car hard, I'm just not that kind of person. But I'm puzzled about trying to change the essential nature of a luxury 'executive' car in to something the maker didn't design in themselves. If rapid throttle response and immediate reactions are so vital why hasn't everyone here bought a Caterham or similar? I'm not arguing with anyone, just seeking enlightenment.

[I have also scratched my head for many years when I see a Range Rover Sport, usually with big wheels, low-pro tyres etc, on the motorway. This just seems so wrong. If the owner actually wanted a 'sports' car, why on Earth would anyone use a Range Rover, of all things, as the starting point? It always struck me a bit like a Transit GTi. Madness, madness ... ]

[EssexGonzo]

Hi

I've no axe to grind here and I may be speaking out of turn (apologies if so) but isn't the hesitance (for some =smoothness) much of what an Audi is about? I'm not a car enthusiast, alloy wheels do nothing for me, I've never pushed any car hard, I'm just not that kind of person. But I'm puzzled about trying to change the essential nature of a luxury 'executive' car in to something the maker didn't design in themselves. If rapid throttle response and immediate reactions are so vital why hasn't everyone here bought a Caterham or similar? I'm not arguing with anyone, just seeking enlightenment.

[I have also scratched my head for many years when I see a Range Rover Sport, usually with big wheels, low-pro tyres etc, on the motorway. This just seems so wrong. If the owner actually wanted a 'sports' car, why on Earth would anyone use a Range Rover, of all things, as the starting point? It always struck me a bit like a Transit GTi. Madness, madness ... ]

A good point.

Is the A6 a luxury car trying to look sporty or a sports car trying to be luxurious?

An A6 diesel with 20" wheels is, in my humble and minority view, slightly silly. Trying to appear to be something it's not and ruining the sort of ride a luxury car should have in the process. The only exception in my head would be an RS6.

And yes....I know mine has 18s which I think should be an inch smaller for the ride quality.

[robbyg]

LOL, amused by the way this is going.....
dare'nt comment much, but, i personall like a big comfy limo, i also like a sports car. I dont like owning two cars. I am trying to get the best of both here.
The lag is frustrating, but really doesnt actually matter. I loved my porsche, it had zero lag. I miss it almost daily. However, i love the quiet comfort of my A6, the fact i can get load sin the boot, the fact i can get 50mpg ...

[casto]

Hi

I've no axe to grind here and I may be speaking out of turn (apologies if so) but isn't the hesitance (for some =smoothness) much of what an Audi is about? I'm not a car enthusiast, alloy wheels do nothing for me, I've never pushed any car hard, I'm just not that kind of person. But I'm puzzled about trying to change the essential nature of a luxury 'executive' car in to something the maker didn't design in themselves. If rapid throttle response and immediate reactions are so vital why hasn't everyone here bought a Caterham or similar? I'm not arguing with anyone, just seeking enlightenment.

[I have also scratched my head for many years when I see a Range Rover Sport, usually with big wheels, low-pro tyres etc, on the motorway. This just seems so wrong. If the owner actually wanted a 'sports' car, why on Earth would anyone use a Range Rover, of all things, as the starting point? It always struck me a bit like a Transit GTi. Madness, madness ... ]


Good point but to me it is obvious that a buyer who paid the extra money for 313 hp and 650 Nm is looking for performance as much as comfort. If only looking for comfort you could just as well have choosen a Tdi with less power for less money. I like to have powerful cars. My week end car is a Corvette C6 Z06 wit 512 hp from the factory. Still I tuned it so now it has 550 hp. Stupid perhaps but it is what I prefer. So lag and throttle hesitation just isn't my thing.

[KAM]

paid the extra money for 313 hp and 650 Nm is looking for performance as much as comfort But I'm getting the feeling that paying for 313/650 as numbers in themselves is pointless since they are clearly no guarantee of performance, however you define it? What if the Audi had 512bhp? You still wouldn't have been satisfied and would have wanted 550 etc. I feel it's a bit like buying a pair of loudspeakers based on the size of the drivers or the supposed power handling. Unless you listen to them first you won't know that paying extra for a manufacturer with a 6" woofer may not produce a better sound than another using a 4" woofer. And trying to retune the 6" speakers later by adding/removing accessories isn't really addressing the fundamental problem.

Did you actually drive the car in question before making the decision in its favour? And was the lag and hesitation apparent then?

[jbanfie]

All,

Having driven a bit more learning not to kick down, and using manual mode on the box I find the whole experience much more to my liking and given all that preparation, when you do plant your foot (not past the kickdown switch), it takes off brilliantly. No noticable lag,

Typically as I approach an overtaking place I pull back on gear gear lever to put it into sport mode (this usually kicks down a gear or two anyway), then push over for manual and then pick a gear for the revs to be about 2000.

When you then go for it, everything is well set and you don't kick down incurring the box delay etc.

In my manual cars, I pushed the clutch selected either 2nd or 3rd and floored the sucker - easy! Using this method you can even perform banzai overtakes in my wifes Mini Countryman 1.6D ALL4!!!

You pays your money and takes your choice, I do like the ease of the Auto box for 99% of the driving and for the other 1% I've learned how to get the best out of the car even if it is a bit of a process.

On those times when an opportunity springs infront of you and therefore you are not 'prepared', I reckon I could change a manual box and floor it quicker than the kickdown takes and that is a shame, but it doesn't happen often enough to worry me

Jon

[casto]

All,

Having driven a bit more learning not to kick down, and using manual mode on the box I find the whole experience much more to my liking and given all that preparation, when you do plant your foot (not past the kickdown switch), it takes off brilliantly. No noticable lag,

Typically as I approach an overtaking place I pull back on gear gear lever to put it into sport mode (this usually kicks down a gear or two anyway), then push over for manual and then pick a gear for the revs to be about 2000.

When you then go for it, everything is well set and you don't kick down incurring the box delay etc.

In my manual cars, I pushed the clutch selected either 2nd or 3rd and floored the sucker - easy! Using this method you can even perform banzai overtakes in my wifes Mini Countryman 1.6D ALL4!!!

You pays your money and takes your choice, I do like the ease of the Auto box for 99% of the driving and for the other 1% I've learned how to get the best out of the car even if it is a bit of a process.

On those times when an opportunity springs infront of you and therefore you are not 'prepared', I reckon I could change a manual box and floor it quicker than the kickdown takes and that is a shame, but it doesn't happen often enough to worry me

Jon


But I'm getting the feeling that paying for 313/650 as numbers in themselves is pointless since they are clearly no guarantee of performance, however you define it? What if the Audi had 512bhp? You still wouldn't have been satisfied and would have wanted 550 etc. I feel it's a bit like buying a pair of loudspeakers based on the size of the drivers or the supposed power handling. Unless you listen to them first you won't know that paying extra for a manufacturer with a 6" woofer may not produce a better sound than another using a 4" woofer. And trying to retune the 6" speakers later by adding/removing accessories isn't really addressing the fundamental problem.

Did you actually drive the car in question before making the decision in its favour? And was the lag and hesitation apparent then?


Nope. I bought this car out of the box. I gurss it is all about preferences. I have tuned more or less all my cars over the years and will probably do so also with this one. But to be honest it is not really needed as the car has acceleration times like a Porsche 911, not bad for an Avant. And all my friends who have tried it say " holy sh**t". :)

[a8toa6convert]

The issue isn't really whether the hesitation/lag is appropriate to the car. The issue is that the 8 speed ZF conventional auto box mated to the BiTDi in the A6 has an unwelcome trait that is not found in the 7 speed dual clutch s-tronic box mated to the single turbo 3.0tdi 245ps in the same car. It's a trait that's been remarked on in magazine road tests as well. It's not present to the same degree in the F10 5 series using the same box, but it is there in the A8, so it seems to be down to Audi's programming of the box.

In a car with such a huge and widely spread amount of torque, it is simply not necessary for it to "gather its skirts" and then kick down the way it does.

[belly buster]

A shame they don't do the BiTDi with a manual box option. Likewise the 245PS.

[KAM]

it is simply not necessary for it to "gather its skirts" and then kick down the way it does. Is it really fair to criticise an A6 for being an A6? The perceived lags, hesitations etc that others mention seem to be generally agreed to be the intentional results of Audi's plans for the vehicle. They're not design faults or manufacturing errors that have crept in somewhere along the way because of poor quality control.
I could criticise Bruce Forsyth. "It is simply not necessary" for the old goat to spend his dotage gurning and grimacing, fluffing his lines, and faffing around "the way he does." But that's what makes Bruce Forsyth Bruce Forsyth, no matter how much I dislike it. If I switch on a show with him in it I know what I'm going to get and can't really complain. To watch or not to watch is under my control.
Thus with the A6 C7. It is what it is. And I happen to think it's an excellent vehicle - I really enjoy mine. For those who want an A6 to be something different, it just isn't going to happen. By all means complain about genuine errors, bits that don't work, loose bits, noisy bits, flappy bits etc and get the dealer to fix them. They're not why you bought the car.
But when the car is behaving exactly as its maker intended then I think it's a case of caveat emptor.

[jbanfie]

KAM, whilst I agree with your sentiment, any car that kicks down from 2nd to 1st has got issues! We all seem to generally agree that the gearbox behaviour is not what any of us would really choose.

When Audi put together a 313PS car with a load of torque, who did they think was going to buy it, the pipe and slipper brigade?

I agree that it's a fantastic car, but I do think the gearbox of the BiTDi version could have been tuned better to the torque chatacteristics of the engine, or a manual box (which I guess they don't have a strong enough clutch for).

[KAM]

There's also the issue of me not being able to stretch my understanding far enough towards those who find the performance disappointing. Metaphorically at least, I'm probably due a long-service medal in the P & S Brigade. I don't get thrills from being first away at the lights, twisting roads don't give me goose-bumps as I tease the car ever closer to the edge, I'm not one for overtaking everyone in a queue just to reach the back of the next caravan two miles ahead that precious minute earlier.
Calm down boys, calm down!

Yes, I am that old duffer who drives everywhere in E (oh, all right I have had it in S once or twice) and I get seriously worried if my mpg drops below 45 (more usually 50+). But honestly, when I cast my mind back to the previous century and the first cars I drove, performance today has evolved so much more than human eyesight and reactions. You didn't measure an Austin 1100's 0-60 time with a stopwatch, you used an hourglass. But that was on paper-thin bicycle tyres with brakes made from slabs of margarine. Oh, we've come far enough from the title of the original post in this thread, don't get me started on the good old days ... !

[a8toa6convert]

KAM, you're just not getting the point we're making. The behaviour of the 8 speed ZF box in the BiTdi is making it less "A6-like", not more. Hesitation here does not equal smoothness, as you suggest earlier. It equals unpredictability and inconsistent delivery of power, and conflict with the shift points we would have chosen manually.

The 7 speed s-tronic.... works fine. The 8 speed box in the competitor F10 5 series.... works fine.

You seem to have got yourself a mental picture that those of us complaining about it have got lost on the way to the Evo forum or are only posting between bouts of drifting round our local Asda car park. It just ain't so !

Have you actually driven the A6 BiTdi, or the A8 with the same issue ?

[KAM]

... me not being able to stretch my understanding far enough towards those who find the performance disappointing
... you're just not getting the point we're makingWell, at least we're agreed on one thing!

No, I've never driven the BiTDi, but I'm getting the impression that many who have bought it didn't either. Why else would the performance come as a disappointment? When I took delivery of my 2.0 TDi there weren't any unpleasant surprises for me. I'd driven it, and competitors, and I'd made my choice accordingly. For me, making the second-largest investment of my life after a house is not something I would do based on a brochure. For someone to invest what I think is a large chunk of money in a car without having investigated their purchase thoroughly strikes me as, well, careless. Finding later that it doesn't do what you want, or how you want it, is a bit late by then.


I'm not supporting or justifying the way the BiTDi, or any car, behaves. I'm simply questioning the purchasing approach. Would someone buy hi-fi without listening to it and then complain about the sound quality? "An amp with this amount of power should sound better." No. There is no connection. And as people seem to be finding out, a car with loads of horses and torques doesn't automatically make it a satisfying car. But why didn't they discover that beforehand? That's my really stumbling block in understanding all this. Apologies.

[jbanfie]

KAM, there is nothing wrong with the performance of the car, but as many have noted the gearbox kickdown behaviour is not ideal.

Your point about try before you buy is well founded though, no-one at my Audi dealership had driven one either, but on a short test drive you probably wouldn't gain enough experience to find the behaviour either.

What you should expect is that the might that is Audi had actually thought about the gearbox set up slightly more than my mother would!

The car is so close to being perfect a small tweak would sort it out, but I doubt we will ever see a change - and I have written to Audi UK about it.

[jbanfie]

Also, given that I own one of these things, and the change would PROBABLY be even more simple than the one many are asking for the iphone dual sim challenge, I feel I'm going to end up in the growing group of people who are ultimately dissappointed in the car and won't recommend Audi to their friends - mainly due to corperate behaviour rather than product issues.

As you quite rightly point out, many customers are fantastically happy with their Audi, and that's great, but where you have product improvement opportunities it would be good to see these taken rather than rejected.

Time will tell

[a8toa6convert]

The "you should try before you buy" argument doesn't really work if you're among the first customers for something new. It's a risk we know we face, but it's still annoying being treated like a beta tester !

I remember taking delivery of one of the first Fords built with the 2.2 diesel lump that is now in the Evoque and XF and elsewhere. Within a few hours it had shown a stutter at steady cruising speeds. No way I could have known about that before buying. Ford dealer network and national customer service was initially no help, but a Ford insider on a forum let me know the problem was being recognised and indeed Ford did eventually issue a software update that cured it.

Audi could easily do the same here. Will they, and in the meantime how will they manage the concerns raised by their customers ?

[KAM]

Are you all so desperate to be the first kid on your block with a new toy? Who on Earth buys V1.0 of anything? You're all mad.
I'm out of here.

[belly buster]

Are you all so desperate to be the first kid on your block with a new toy? Who on Earth buys V1.0 of anything? You're all mad.
I'm out of here.

A lot of folk do like to have the latest and greatest. Look at the queue at the Apple store when the new iThing comes out.

Someone has to be first!

[robbyg]

I am sitting at home chuckling. Lets all have a deep breath and chill out abit....

I agree with all the posts here (i think) on both sides of the argument. I dont usually buy v1.0 of anythig either through i am very tempted with an ipad now they are upto version 4 this month.....

The A6 is the first car i have ever bought without test driving the specific version first. it was a calculated gamble. The autobox set up in reality is perfectly ok, and as jbanfie says it would only need a small tweak to make it perfect. I find this to be the case with many mass produced items. Everything else about the car is excellent. I knew all about the sim card issues from this forum before i bought. With my blackberry on bluetooth it has performed perfectly since day 1. I am soon changing jobs so will be very careful about what phone i select next.

The biggest problem with my bitdi is its rubbish at doing donuts and burn outs with the other kids on the seafront, the quattro system just sticks those tyres to the road, even flat out in first with a hard flick getting ready for opposite lock i just cant get the back end out....... With a burn out, the traction control kicks in after 5 seconds smoking even when its turned off, i might write and complain...... ;)

[a8toa6convert]

Are you all so desperate to be the first kid on your block with a new toy? Who on Earth buys V1.0 of anything? You're all mad.
I'm out of here.

Fair enough. You came into the thread, saying "I'm not arguing with anyone, just seeking enlightenment", but continued to project negative stereotypes onto us and to misunderstand what we were complaining about, then flounce off again. You literally can't argue with that !

[BrianWM]

I feel I should comment to thank posters here commenting on the niggles with the 8 speed. I bought the 245hp s-tronic and kept wondering if, because of my minor niggles, I'd've have been happier with the BiTDi, primarily because of the gearbox.

My niggle (with the s-tronic) is that it's not quite so consistent from standstill as a TC auto, and it's rubbish reversing up a slope. I think my very minor niggles are about equal to yours so I'm feeling happier with my choice, thanks !

As for buying v1.0 of a product: the amount of time and effort put into testing cars, which is easily an order of magnitude beyond that given to an non-safety related gizmo, should mean a better product from day 1, imho.

[jbanfie]

Hi Brian,

I'm disappointingly not surprised by your view of the s-tronic box, the electromechanical clutch must be massively difficult to get right and I suppose reversing is where you notice it the most, but like I say that's no real surprise.

With respect to the Tip Tronic in the BiTDi, it is quite a surprise (to me anyway) that the kick down mapping is so far off beam, as you say a lot of testing goes into these things - or at least you think a lot of testing goes into it.

Obviously from a standing start these behaviours are not noticed, but on the open road in real scenarios, these things get exposed.

What is so ironic is that a kick down is supposed to make overtaking better, not worse?

[skibuddy]

I find that my left foot and a manual gearbox work flawlessly together. I can thoroughly recommend it :biglaugh:

[casto]

Are you all so desperate to be the first kid on your block with a new toy? Who on Earth buys V1.0 of anything? You're all mad.
I'm out of here.

Yup, I'm just that desperate! :-)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[jbanfie]

I did a load more gearbox testing yesterday and have to say I'm actually quite pleased with the results, in sport mode, 2nd gear and just above 2000 rpm I couldn't get it to kickdown, which is kind of what I both would expect and prefer.

My kick down to first incidents must have been when I was going very slowly, which I don't really remember, but I'm prepared to believe my more formal testing results.

I didn't have enough opportunities to discover the exact rev number where it will kick down to 1st, but it would appear if the revs are over 2000 and you boot it right down, then you just fly. I'm going to keep working on it as I've always done with new cars, but I'm definitely happier the more I learn.

Personally I prefer a manual box, but I am getting older, one day at a time!

[KAM]

Fair enough. You came into the thread, saying "I'm not arguing with anyone, just seeking enlightenment", but continued to project negative stereotypes onto us and to misunderstand what we were complaining about, then flounce off again. You literally can't argue with that !
You're absolutely right, and I apologise.
If I did continue projecting negative stereotypes it was because I just couldn't get to grips with the majority thinking. Everything viewed through my set of glasses just seemed badly skewed, and no amount of explanation clarified it for me.
Continuing to misunderstand makes it sound as if that was a wilful stance I was taking. Believe me, if the lightbulb in my head had suddenly clicked on, I would have immediately acknowledged the new wisdom I'd been vouchsafed.

As for flouncing, well, you've got me bang to rights. There was a definite swirl of the skirts as I spun on my heels there. I write this as a remorseful penitent, no doubt sentenced to branding with the 4 rings to mark me out in society as a convicted flouncer.

[jbanfie]

Fair enough, it's back to love and kisses in the A6 C7 section, that's good.

I think that generally the attitude and responses here are very useful, both before and after purchasing a car, especially one with so many options, buttons, menus and modes.

I've certainly gained a load of knowledge from others, and I'm never afraid to ask a question, even if with hindsight (and improved knowledge) it appears trivial.

One other problem is that whilst there is a load of infomation on the pages of the forum, there is no good index, which I appreciate is difficult given the forum tool etc etc.

Hugs and kisses

[a8toa6convert]

You're absolutely right, and I apologise.
If I did continue projecting negative stereotypes it was because I just couldn't get to grips with the majority thinking. Everything viewed through my set of glasses just seemed badly skewed, and no amount of explanation clarified it for me.
Continuing to misunderstand makes it sound as if that was a wilful stance I was taking. Believe me, if the lightbulb in my head had suddenly clicked on, I would have immediately acknowledged the new wisdom I'd been vouchsafed.

As for flouncing, well, you've got me bang to rights. There was a definite swirl of the skirts as I spun on my heels there. I write this as a remorseful penitent, no doubt sentenced to branding with the 4 rings to mark me out in society as a convicted flouncer.

:grouphug:

[DBLincoln]

Hi All

Remapping

Since my last post I have contacted a number of UK companies to see about having my A7 remapped……………they were all going to get back to me and none did.

So I searched on the Internet and contacted some companies in Germany for information and costs………including B&B Engineering, whom quoted something in excess of €4,000 to get the car to 395bhp and 800nm with a change of injectors and mods to intercooler.

I was then put on to JD Engineering in Lochem Holland and they specialise in VAG cars. Speaking to them filled me with confidence and I booked the car in for 5thDecember.

Tunnel was £44 and some 293 miles later I was at Lochem. Stayed in a hotel for the night and was at JD Engineering for 8:30 the next morning. What impressive workshops they have. Car was on to 4wd rolling road and first test showed that the car produced 297bhp and 635nm.

Mark then removed the box and set about remapping it. His knowledge is impressive and he explained about what he was doing in a language I understood. The critical thing apparently is the exhaust temperature due to the DPF. This they err to the side of caution.

Job finished by 12:30 with………….409bhp and 845nm…..no this is not a typo and I have the print out to prove.

The journey back was truly amazing, a totally transformed car, no lag anywhere just pure grunt.

I leave to your imagination as to the difference in performance……………only it’s better than you dare to imagine! Another amazing thing was I was 3 mpg better on the run back than going…………….how does that work? Doing the same journey the last 2 days I recon I am a good 4-5 mpg better than before.

The only problem I have is that every time I overtake something my faces breaks into a ‘stupid grin’………….the Doctor says this could be permanent if I keep driving this car!

The cost was under a €1000.

I have had other cars remapped but these guys are in a league of their own.

[jbanfie]

Great story, I'm going to get mine done at some point on the back of that.

I presume you just had the re-programme, not a chip replacement, so there is no real evidence the job has been done and so no impact on the warranty - which I guess everyone worries about?

I see from the website the 313PS remap is 890 Euros

[jbanfie]

Also, if you car blows up in the next few months, please let me know!

I'm sure it will be fine, as I doubt you every reach max power or anything close on the roads of the UK, and you've got a nice slushy torque converter protecting the gearbox!

[blue62]

The increase in torque and bhp is incredible, I would be interested to know if there is a risk the programme will be wiped out when you tak the car into VAG for a service? I take it that this upgrade has smoothed out the gearbox issues others have referred to on here?

[DBLincoln]

Hi All

Yes it is just remapping so no physical evidence and no injector changes.

I spoke with my Dealer before I committed to having the Remap. Got the ‘thumbs up’ that they would turn a blind eye.
In reality they said they would not be able to tell, except that the vast difference in performance would be obvious....but perhaps more importantly they would not do any system upgrades that could overwrite the map.

JD will keep the map forever and if it was overwritten, simply remove the ECU box send overnight and they would reprogram and send back. So would expect to have car off the road for 3 days max.

You guys will be the first I tell if anything goes ‘bang’….but if anything the engine feels ‘comfortable’ that is to say not labouring, or the torque vibration that I got from the BMW.

…………and yes the gearbox issues have disappeared and the whole vehicle seems quieter...............which leads me on to tyre noise……….any of you on Pirelli Tyres and if so do you find the tyre noise intrusive? I really noticed this on the way back on different road surfaces.

Best wishes to you all.

PS ...........If you want to try before you buy I am in Lincoln most days.

[DBLincoln]

18787

[jbanfie]

Very interesting graph, and further evidence that you do want to change gear well before the rev limiter!!!

I'll check the recommended change point on the lap timer green and red bars thing to see where on your curve the recommendation comes. As you can imagine it all happens a bit quick, certainly in 2nd and 3rd, and by the time you are in 4th and the revs are high, you are going fast!

[robbyg]

Assuming the red line on the graph is the before plot? That implies about 340bhp and 700Nm before???

This is very tempting.... dont tell the wife, "yes dear, i just need to nip over to germany..."

My previous chipped turbo cars have all been 5-10% better on fuel after. Win/win.
However, 2 of the 3 had the software wiped during routine servicing, so you always need a free way to re-instate.

[DBLincoln]

Whilst you are correct, it is the graph that is not.

First run was just short of 300bhp.

[jbanfie]

Did a quick test of the change lights on the laptimer in manual mode.

First green bar on around 4000 rpm, by 4800 they are flashing red. I think riding to the limiter is pretty pointless!

[DBLincoln]

[QUOTE=jbanfie;767911]Did a quick test of the change lights on the laptimer in manual mode.

First green bar on around 4000 rpm, by 4800 they are flashing red. I think riding to the limiter is pretty pointless![/QUO

I realise now that VDCS is software based link that runs on a laptop...................would you explain in detail what you can add and how the laptimer shows when best to change gear. Does this also give the facilty to add a turbo boost guage?..............and anything else for that matter.

Thanks

[jbanfie]

DB, here's a link to the thread I put up a couple of months ago

VCDS Laptimer Fantastic (http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?136849-VCDS-Laptimer-Fantastic&highlight=vcds+laptimer)

When you select it from the DIS menu and then push the gear lever over for manual, a set of 5 bars appear within the DIS, sadly not the head up display, these light up in turn once the revs are over about 4000, just like Micheal Schumacher gets in F1!!!!!!!

They eventually flash red.

It's a bit of an aid as you can then choose to pull the paddle or the lever when the second or third bar springs into life.

Yes you get a boost gauge, but when you put your foot down, it just rises to the top!

The other cool thing you can add is the needle sweep, where the two dial needles sweep all the way round and light the red led's for the rev limiter as they sweep past!

If you have the head up display this gets speed, oil temp and gear number - but no change lights and I think you loose nav maps in the HUD.

[jbanfie]

Just started to think about a trip to Holland and I find that they have pushed the price for the 313PS engine to 1250 Euros - not happy!

[belly buster]

Any updates on how the remap is going a few months in. Anyone else had a remap? Experiences?

[ukgroucho]

I was really interested in DBlincoln's remapping experience and some of the other discussion on the ZF HP8 gearbox in the A6 BiTdi derivatives (I'm on the brink of ordering an Allroad BiTdi - test drive on Monday). Anyway I started digging around and found a wiki article on teh engine and it got me wondering which specific HP8 gearbox does the BiTdi use. The wiki article (ZF 8HP transmission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_8HP_transmission#List_of_ZF_8HP_variants)) claims the following
List of ZF 8HP variants

name
max. gasoline torque (N·m)
max. diesel torque (N·m)
examples


8HP30
300
300
-


8HP45
450
500
BMW 1 Series (F20), BMW 5 Series (F10)


8HP55
550
550
Audi A4 (B8), Audi A6 (C7)


8HP70
700
700
BMW 7 Series (F01), BMW X5 (E70), Range Rover Sport (2012)


8HP90
900
1000
Rolls-Royce Ghost,[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_8HP_transmission#cite_note-21) Bentley Mulsanne


Transmissions in blue are used by Chrysler.

So the A6 (I assume BiTdi) has the 8HP55 - which is rated for 550N-m in a diesel ... seems odd given that the engine produces a max of 650 N-m. Makes me wonder if remapping the engine is a wise thing to do ..

Anyone got any comments?

[DBLincoln]

Hi Guys

I have now got some serious miles under my belt since the remap.

Car is fabulous although I ran the winter months on 'Cold Weather' tyres and wow what a fantastic difference they made .........particularly when it came to stopping!

So back on normal tyres and the 'bottle topping' on anything less than smooth roads really annoys……….anyone know a cure or do I have to learn to live with it?

Performance of the car still produces the idiot grin, but I have noticed that when ‘drag racing’ there appears to be a slip in the gearbox before it engages and then it really pulls. Have read about DSG gearbox tuning but has anyone had this done and would it cure it.

Best ‘take off’ appears to be in Comfort………..once slip has gone it flies but it is that slip lag that bothers me.

My son has a 535d and has just had switchable water/ethanol injection added……………….big difference.

Currently running a 5ltr Windscreen Washer bottle on 50/50 mix.

Would appreciate some feedback on the gearbox situation…………….anyone else had theirs remapped?

DBLincoln

[ukgroucho]

Thanks for the update.

Have to confess the "slip" that you describe would concern me until I could get to the bottom of what was happening so good luck with finding a resolution.

Interesting that you mention winter tyres... I just ordered an Allroad BiTdi and have been thinking I may also rig it with winter tyres for the November to March season. My A6 3.0 Tdi Quattro is 'pretty good' in snow with 'summer' tyres - it always seems to find traction - but it's very noticeable that stopping is challenging. I figure that the extra ground clearance of the Allroad (plus I think the ESP is tweaked to accommodate slippy conditions when in Allroad mode) should make it a worthwhile add-on.
Did you just swap tyres or did you get a second set of wheels?
What tyres did you do with?
Did you look at the service that some Audi dealers offer to do this stuff for you?

The switchable water / ethanol sounds interesting. I know that water injection helps increase the charge density but the ethanol is new to me. Does it make a significant difference or just smoother running and a bit more MPG?

[Steve Wagstaff]

Good morning to all of you, I'm a new joiner to this site and have enjoyed reading this thread. I've just recently sold my Mercedes SL and replaced it with the A6 Bi-TDI (needed a couple of extra seats !). It's an awesome car dispite the kick-down /lag issues and some niggly gear mapping that have been mentioned here by various members. I saw the JD Engineering re-map which seems to have completed it's honeymoon period with some teething issues still. I'm summising that a re-map of some kind will likely fix the kick-down/gear mapping issues mentioned so would like to go ahead with this at some point. There seem to be lot's of choices out there but I can't seem to find the best option? I've seen MTM and ABT mentioned but I've not seen Revo with an option yet? I used Revo on my wife's Roadster with fantastic results - completely changed the car. So any best recommendations and reasons for a particular choice? I do a few motorway miles but do like a cross country blat. Thanks all

[robbyg]

I have also had Revo in the past and was very pleased. I keep checking their site but nothing yet :(

[belly buster]

Seems to me that as great as the BiTdi engine is, the ZF Tiptronic gearbox lets it down a lot.

If Audi are serious about this top-of-the-range engine, they need to get working on a better gearbox option (manual transmission would be great!).

On first reading you assume that a Bi-Turbo would have a first-stage smaller turbo to remove the turbo lag, but if the lag just moves to gearbox, this defeats the object.

[ukgroucho]

From what I gather the "delay" is caused by some combination of the gearbox and engine management system firmware (which may be the same thing). It seems that the ZF gearbox in other applications (BMW etc.) is not 'laggy'. Fundamentally it seems to be a good gearbox.
We have at least one member who had his BiTdi remapped and that got rid of the lag... maybe Audi might want to consider revisiting their gearbox firmware....

[Steve Wagstaff]

I have also had Revo in the past and was very pleased. I keep checking their site but nothing yet :(

Thanks Robby. I did drop Revo a direct mail to their Tech Director. They've not developed any options for the Bi-TDI yet although will be looking at it soon.

Steve

[belly buster]

Heard an A6 BiTDI drive past today, just as I was walking across the Southwark Bridge Road.

Sounded <REMOVED> amazing!!

[EvilPostIt]

Picked my BiTDI up this morning and I cannot quite express or describe the smile that it has brought to my face after doing 20 miles! Havnt experienced the kickdown issues yet but its only been 20 miles! Needless to say I'm a very happy chap!!!!!

[ukgroucho]

Congrats EvilPostIt... don't forget to start a thread and post a few pics!

[jbanfie]

Excellent news, I know you will enjoy it and steady throttle for at least 1000 miles!

[EvilPostIt]

I have been taking it steady for the most part. It's surprising how relaxing it is actually, quite an effortless enjoyable ride. Glad I didn't go for the sports suspension though, the s-line suspension is just right and contrary to some opinions I quite like the non led air con temp dials.

[casto]

Update..I now use the paddles for overtaking quicker. I think there should be a TCU upgrade for the gearbox soon. Anyone heard anything? Or what you think about the Sprint Booster? Would that work?

Skickat från min GT-I9505 via Tapatalk 2

[razor77]

Hi Guys

Best ‘take off’ appears to be in Comfort………..once slip has gone it flies but it is that slip lag that bothers me.

DBLincoln

Are you suggesting the gearbox is slipping? The performance upgrade sounds great, but concerning if it can cause problems.

[Steve Wagstaff]

Has any Bi-TDI owner seen any news/rumours on whether Audi are going to release a software upgrade for the gearbox to cure the 2nd to 1st jearky downchange and the kick-down responsiveness? Thanks Steve

[jbanfie]

Hi Steve, the short answer is no, and sadly, I think the long answer is no and never.

I ran this whole issue up the flag pole a couple of months ago and got stumped by the 'type approval' statement, and was told to change the configuration of the car would require a re-type approval process which presumably costs quite a bit so they won't do it.

Get yourself to Holland spend the 1250 Euros and love your car again.

But in all seriousness, I now run in sport mode whenever I'm 'driving' or going to overtake when the road allows, this picks the revs up quite a bit, I then downshift one or two gears on the paddles as the opportunity arises and boot it, this tends to avoid stupid kick downs as you've done the work already.

Be happy Bi-Turbo owners, be happy!

[ukgroucho]

My Allroad is just a few weeks old and still has the 'awkward' 2nd into 1st change (i.e. MY 2014 builds behave the same). You only really notice it when you turn into a side road and have to slow to a near halt... a rolling downshift, coming to a halt at intersections it is not evident.

I'm completely with jbanfie on sports mode / paddles for 'spirited' driving - and this was also the case with my old C6 3.0 TDi. If you know you're pressing on then dynamic / sports mode is best with occasional use of the paddles. If you happen to be in Auto / comfort (or eco, although I can only see me using that on a motorway haul in winter) then use paddles to set up an overtake as it will prevent any auto gear shifts. Obviously if you're sitting for a while waiting for a gap just knock the box into manual to prevent it from 'reverting'.

I can 'live' with that - in fact i consider it part of getting the best out of the machine (aka "driving" :) )

[jbanfie]

And to be fair, as Steve noted in the other thread, I too can get 50mpg when I take it real easy - my conclusions are that you can't have your cake and eat it with Diesel cars, but this one gets pretty close and as we have all concluded you can easily live with the small compromises.

The kick down could be better though - bah humbug!

[ukgroucho]

EvilPostIt said "It's surprising how relaxing it is actually, quite an effortless enjoyable ride."

Funny, exactly the comment that my wife made and I was trundling along using the torque below 2000 RPM... "it seems very effortless"

[Steve Wagstaff]

my wife and daughter both say ".....this car SCARES ME...(whilst holding the side of the seat)." generally when I've kicked it down a couple of gears manually and in the sweet-spot of 2000 revs plus for an 'express' join to the motorway :-) - but YES I can compromise too BUT would like Audi to fix-it just to make it a perfect all-round car...(I swapped a Merc SL for this car...)

[razor77]

I was really interested in DBlincoln's remapping experience and some of the other discussion on the ZF HP8 gearbox in the A6 BiTdi derivatives (I'm on the brink of ordering an Allroad BiTdi - test drive on Monday). Anyway I started digging around and found a wiki article on teh engine and it got me wondering which specific HP8 gearbox does the BiTdi use. The wiki article (ZF 8HP transmission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_8HP_transmission#List_of_ZF_8HP_variants)) claims the following
List of ZF 8HP variants



name
max. gasoline torque (N·m)
max. diesel torque (N·m)
examples


8HP30
300
300
-


8HP45
450
500
BMW 1 Series (F20), BMW 5 Series (F10)


8HP55
550
550
Audi A4 (B8), Audi A6 (C7)


8HP70
700
700
BMW 7 Series (F01), BMW X5 (E70), Range Rover Sport (2012)


8HP90
900
1000
Rolls-Royce Ghost,[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_8HP_transmission#cite_note-21) Bentley Mulsanne


Transmissions in blue are used by Chrysler.

So the A6 (I assume BiTdi) has the 8HP55 - which is rated for 550N-m in a diesel ... seems odd given that the engine produces a max of 650 N-m. Makes me wonder if remapping the engine is a wise thing to do ..

Anyone got any comments?

Did you ever get any answers on this?!

[razor77]

I am making the presumption DB Lincoln is no longer on the forum. A great shame because he had posted the earliest and therefore by now, if he still has the car, potential longest reported roadtest in this forum for a remapped BiTdi. If you're around please update us :-).

[Guest 2]

I am making the presumption DB Lincoln is no longer on the forum. A great shame because he had posted the earliest and therefore by now, if he still has the car, potential longest reported roadtest in this forum for a remapped BiTdi. If you're around please update us :-).

jbanfie on the forum who is regular has a remapped BiTDi - Trip to Holland (http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?146999-Trip-to-Holland&highlight=)

[gupsterg]

Did you ever get any answers on this?!

Hi,

The C7 Bi TDi has 0BK view page 23 of SSP 603.

The 0BK is also used in the A8 (D4/4H), google for SSP 457 view page 21.

In that table you will see the variant of 8HP55 / 90 used and specs.

ATB
G

[razor77]

Hi,

The C7 Bi TDi has 0BK view page 23 of SSP 603.

The 0BK is also used in the A8 (D4/4H), google for SSP 457 view page 21.

In that table you will see the variant of 8HP55 / 90 used and specs.

ATB
G

Thank you, so this puts the max torque at 700Nm, that's a concern for remappers, when even the modest +41 BHP remap from superchips brings an increase from 650Nm of torque to 766Nm.

[DBLincoln]

Hi Guys Don't write me off yet.............Car is still going great and not sure if I posted this but I have fitted a box to it as well. Had to turn it down from the manufacturers setting as fuel rail light came on. Top speed according to GPS speedo is 178mph, but not in England! On my 25th Wedding Anniversary(Aug 2013) we visited the Audi Factory (this guy knows how to show a girl a good time!). I understand that the box fitted to the A7 is an upgraded version that goes to 1,000 nm. As I stated earlier the only situation I appear to have is slip under hard acceleration from start. Just ease off and it engages gear and then no more problems. The only problem I HAD was a faulty high pressure fuel rail switch, which put the car into limp mode. This was changed by Audi and no further problems with that. I have a current problem with the headlights inasmuch as the car thinks I am in Europe and adjust the headlights accordingly. Have reset the MMI, but still the same problems............anyone have any ideas as to how to resolve?

[Wuffles]

I have a current problem with the headlights inasmuch as the car thinks I am in Europe and adjust the headlights accordingly. Have reset the MMI, but still the same problems............anyone have any ideas as to how to resolve?

This is being adjusted by the GPS signal automatically?

[DBLincoln]

Thanks Wuffles..............I understand this but do not know how to cure it..............any ideas?

[razor77]

Good to hear that you're still enjoying the A7 BiTdi, I wouldn't dare consider a tuning box in addition to a remap! Out of interest what does the additional uplift on top of the remap feel like?

Did your dealers service desk know about the remap when they changed the high pressure fuel rail switch?

Regarding the different tip box, it'd be good to validate that, seems bizarre Audi would upgrade it for the same engine, but if you're in fact wrong then your positive experience will restore some of my lost confidence. If you're right, it adds to my only remorse with the A6 Avant, that I didn't get the same spec on an A7, because the contributions make them almost the same price!

[Wuffles]

Thanks Wuffles..............I understand this but do not know how to cure it..............any ideas?

I'm afraid the feature doesn't actually work as advertised on mine and a few other people's cars as far as I understand it - not BiTDIs either. So much as we'd like to have the problem, ours is the opposite.

[DBLincoln]

There is a difference really noticeable mid range, but the best part for me is the fuel consumption better by 5miles per gallon. No they did not ask, but they are 'unofficially' aware and turn a 'blind eye' apart from the comments about the amazing performance from it. They cannot believe the difference in so many respects from the original. I understand that the upgraded box is fitted to all Quattro models. Found this in Wikipedia just now published 2009 to support what I was told .'Future development will see two four-wheel drive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-wheel_drive) versions available, with version destined for Volkswagen Group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group) applications, using a Torsen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsen) centre differential.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_8HP_transmission#cite_note-ZF_8HP_PDF-5) It will be able to encompass a torque range from 300 newton metres (221 lbf·ft) to 1,000 newton metres (738 lbf·ft), and will be available for use in middle class cars, through to large luxury sport utility vehicles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_utility_vehicle).[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_8HP_transmission#cite_note-ZF_8HP_PDF-5)I

[razor77]

I understand that the upgraded box is fitted to all Quattro models. Thanks. Although in contrast page 25 of Audi's SSP603 which says the BiTdi uses the 0BK variant, and defers to SSP 457, listing the aforementioned 700Nm max. The A7 may of course be different.

[Steve Wagstaff]

I still have mine with MTM..also see My Bi-TDI Sline one year on... (http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?156287-My-Bi-TDI-Sline-one-year-on)

[Steve Wagstaff]

Be interested to know if any BiTDI owners have found a good CAI solution such as Carbonio's they can recommend? Thanks

[DBLincoln]

Steve

I know I am going to kick myself but what is CAI?

Whilst on I am 2 years and 48k into my A7 and it has returned average of 38.4 mpg.

Only problems that I have had was the auto headlight dipping that thought I was still on the continent and took 2 attempts to cure.

Currently in on Wednesday for service and look at Brake Guard and ACC not available.........check to see if problem with gearbox. Had 4 large guys in car and stuck in a lot of slow traffic on hills and got gearbox error message. Nothing further but thought best to have them check it.

Also to fit the modification pipe to the brake servo under recall.

Have fitted the Kufatec Sound Actuator and love the additional throaty sound. Amazing since fitting that how many people now compliment the car!!

Happy Motoring!

[Steve Wagstaff]

My apologies - Cold Air Intake - basically a replacement unit for the standard air intake with improved air flow and capacity and engine response charateristics and increased BHP in reigon of 10 to 15bhp. I've got MTM re-amp so this would work well if there was one available. The sound actuator does make the exhaust note sound good - and neat being able to turn it on/off to suit. I fooled my next door neightbour (a BMW Dealer Principle) for months who thought I had one of the V8 versions of the A6. :-) Steve

[Steve Wagstaff]

I have the Kufatec as well. So many positive comments about it including from Rs6 specialist at dealership who was wowed.
Looking forward to the Tri turbo 3.0 units being issued.
Steve what is your power output after MTM ?
DB hiya seen your earlier threads good to see your still around. Whats your 0-60 time ? Do you know your BHP/ NM outputs ?
Whats the prognosis from dealership on gearbox ?

Good morning!
For the MTM re-map it's 381bhp and 780nm torque; 0-60 time is 4.6; and top speed limited up to 165. All done by Kim Collins at QST.
I've heard recordings on you-tube that sound amazing...how much is the Kufatec - I looked on line and it seems to be sold with new BiTDI rear exhaust boxes plus software box at around £1600 - is that right? I'm guessing if you already own a BiTDI you don't need new rear exhaust boxes and can just plug in the new wiring loom and control box??

[fest0r]

@Steve, does your dealer know about the upgrades? Can updates at a service wipe the remap? Epic power, 0-60 and mpg all at the same time though :fing02:

@Jamie, would love to know what your BHP/NM are at too ;)

[Steve Wagstaff]

@Steve, does your dealer know about the upgrades? Can updates at a service wipe the remap? Epic power, 0-60 and mpg all at the same time though :fing02:

@Jamie, would love to know what your BHP/NM are at too ;)

To say 'No' would be naive as the minute you pull away it's pretty obvious :-) so the answer is yes it would invalidate warranty. You either request no software updates, or accept a re-load of your settings are required post service. Or send you ECU back for original re-load pre-service! But average 42mpg and up to 50mpg on longer run is fine by me! Funny enough I've owned Merc 63 AMG's in the past and recently went to a Merc AMG day - whilst they sound awesome - you start to question paying £30 to £50K more for what is a similar performance but half the MPG if you're lucky...

[Steve Wagstaff]

Thankyou for that info.


kufatec is great. Here is what you need Soundbooster Pro Active Sound Audi A6 4G, A7 4G-40180 (http://www.kufatec.co.uk/shop/en/sound-booster-pro/audi/soundbooster-pro-active-sound-audi-a6-4g-a7-4g)
Also i priced matched against the same unit on ebay now at £230coming from Germnay and Kufatec Uk matched it
Sound Booster PRO Active Sound Module Audi A6 4G 3,0 TDi Bi Turbo 313 Ps | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/360954525575)
save some money.
Yes if you have bitdi you just need to install as everything you need is already there. Installation 10-20 mins at most.

Excellent, thank you! just sent them a "price match"....quick question - do you need/use the power-start 'red' button in the picture and therefore need to route the cable & switch to the front of the car? I note there are 6 options - can you set everything from the MMI screen? Thanks Steve

[M1tchy]

The power start comes on when you start the car (if it's in dynamic mode) the button can be mounted anywhere it just allows you to choose the sound the car makes. I've fitted mine in the boot and have chosen a sound I like so won't need it in the cabin.


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[DBLincoln]

I have the Kufatec as well. So many positive comments about it including from Rs6 specialist at dealership who was wowed.
Looking forward to the Tri turbo 3.0 units being issued.
Steve what is your power output after MTM ?
DB hiya seen your earlier threads good to see your still around. Whats your 0-60 time ? Do you know your BHP/ NM outputs ?
Whats the prognosis from dealership on gearbox ?

I had mine done in Holland and was really impressed with them.........you could perform brain surgery in their workshop it was that clean. I did post the printouts from the Dyno tests..........407bhp and 845nm. They did get the torque figure higher but this led to overheating of the exhaust. I could have had DPF removed but as the car was new decided against this. Also the exhaust, which is a clean as the day they fitted it, would have ended up black an sooty. On the Motorway on the way back I got it to 178 mph and it went straight there. Must admit that there may have been more there but the rate I was passing everything it ws me that gave up before the car.

It took me a long time to master the 0-100 kph figure until I mastered the launch control part. This is same as yours 4.6 secs. For some reason the time difference is shown for the standards as the A6 5.1 secs and A7 5.3 secs. I have never looked into why the difference given that they are effectively the same chassis! The real joy with me is not traffic light 'grand prix', but the mid range 'grunt' in respect of overtaking etc.

Fuel consumption on a long journey has amazed me.............not quite 50 mpg but got 49.5 on way down to Dorset!

Jamiefc..........Kufatec is available from Kufatec UK and they are so helpful. Cost is £278.98 I think but I got mine for £230 from Germany via eBay and whilst I had a problem with the first unit and sent it back they were quick to provide a replacement. If I am honest I think with the benefit of hindsight I wish I had paid the little extra and bought it from Kufatec. I now see that they will price match so no excuse. I have left the button in the boot as M1tchy has done having found the sound I like and you can always mute it if the need arises.

The only problems I have had with the car in 49k is the high pressure diesel valve had to be replaced (the car went into limp mode and would not reset). Headlights that failed to go back to UK dipping when I returned (they had to shut down the computer and remove a battery and then fire the system up again which cured the problem). I not sure if I have an issue but recently the gearbox fault light came on when I was 4 big guys in the car and luggage stuck in heavy traffic going up hills. Car is in today for service and they will report back to me if there is an issue. They are 'aware' of the remap and whilst they love the idea have turned a 'blind eye' as far as Audi are concerned.

Sorry I have prattled on for some time but as you can guess I love the car.

Going back to 'CAI' have you found one that will fit?

I was offered water injection and have been told that this make a great performance booster for the same reason as the CAI does.

Best wishes

DB

[DBLincoln]

Remapping!!!

Since last post earlier today have had Audi on the phone re the gearbox problem.............they said that the error codes show that the box has failed to maintain pressure. This is due to a 'block' that needs replacing and they have from the information downloaded ascertained that the vehicle has been remapped and therefore will not be covered under warranty!!

Discussing the fault with the engineer it appears that it is totally unrelated to anything caused by the remapping..............so that's the good news!

The bad news is that because the vehicle has been remapped this will not be covered by the Audi Warranty and the cost of repair is estimated at £5k

I have been on to Customer Services and they are entrenched that because it is remapped they will not cover it.

I can understand if the matter was connected to the remapping but hard to accept that in this case it is not. So my argument was that if I developed a problem with the door mechanism this would not be covered.........there answer was that it would be but the power train is not due to the remap.

Unsure of where to go from here as I only had the issue under extreme conditions when the car was fully laden with people and luggage and has not repeated itself since.

Given that the error code is historic do I ignore and carry on? Purchase a Third Party Warranty and if it happens again go through the claims procedure?

Any ideas guys as to whether I am worrying unnecessarily or should I now be concerned?

Look forward to some guidance or comments.

[Whippy53]

As has been discussed at some length here, any mapping will result in a voided warranty. Naturally they only start shaking their heads after its all gone Pete Tong. That said I am sorry this has happened to you, you did what I would only dream of doing, and you did it the right way as well. Where you go from here is anyone's guess. Probably gonna cost you though.

[Guest 2]

Companies say their maps are hidden, hidden right up until audi check the measuring blocks on the car for load and boost pressure.

Your car has now been branded with the TD1 code which will mean any drivetrain claim will now be null and void including claims under other warranties.

It's the risk you take mapping or modifying while in warranty and you've got caught.


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[Steve Wagstaff]

Rik at Kufatec UK is matching my quote @ £236 including delivery. I may go pick it up as they are in Milton Keynes, 15mins from me.

Q'n for all you Kufactec owners - what sound setting have you left your car on (assuming you've tried all settings and then left the button under the rear cover)?

It terms of Cold Air Intake - Carbonio do one for the 3.0 TDI but looking to see how different the fitment is. The TT Shop in Kempston, Bedford will assist. Great bunch of guys there.

Thanks

Steve

[berlintaxi]

As has been discussed at some length here, any mapping will result in a voided warranty. Naturally they only start shaking their heads after its all gone Pete Tong. That said I am sorry this has happened to you, you did what I would only dream of doing, and you did it the right way as well. Where you go from here is anyone's guess. Probably gonna cost you though.

Gotta say I was being tempted down the re-map route, but the fear of something going wrong proves it just ain't worth it.

[Chesterfield313]

Plus 1, I was just starting to think about it. Not now.

[Whippy53]

Like everything in life, its a gamble. Trade off the exhilaration of the extra performance against the risk of it all going belly up. And, how often is the box likely to go wrong? However, if you can stand the cost of repairs, why the hell not? But you need to weigh the potential pitfalls.

[chesterfield]

It will also be interesting to see what happens to these vehicles branded with the TD1 code when it comes to resale or trade in.

If I were an Audi dealer (or any dealer with access to the records), I wouldn't want to take a car in that is branded TD1, as its just asking for trouble if the next owner wants to make a claim under any warranty.

Selling the car privately with the "remaining balance of the manufacturers warranty" is also asking to be sued by the next owner if they are subsequently refused warranty by Audi due to a TD1 issue.

Is it possible to get a third party warranty on a chipped car?

[Whippy53]

If you don't declare it I suppose, it's what's known in the trade as fraud.

[DBLincoln]

Thanks guys for the sympathy..............

Audi had the car for 3 days and I have just collected it.................I have no idea what they have done other than the service and recall servo pipe..........but was told sorry for the delay...........but gearbox problem took sometime to sort!!!!!! Got a wink and see it that is better.

Sorry we are unable to realign the radar you need to take it another Audi dealer with the equipment to do this.

So going back to remapping I have a VW T5 BiTurbo and have used a tuning box on that...........used a Drake Box from Italy but it only lasted a couple of months and the van stopped in the worst possible place! I am aware that these boxes are renown for this!! Wish I had that heard first.

I now have one from Germany, CR Tuning and that is great, about 4 mpg better than standard and when caravan on back noticeably better torque, so I will stay with the box. The good thing here that it can be removed on service and does not leave a 'footprint' as the remap has............so with hindsight perhaps it would have been to have a tuning box during warranty.

Interestingly my son had a 335 that was 'remapped' and then went into a specialist at Haynes. I went with him and saw the extent of the 'remap' that had been done. It was one of those that had been downloaded and then emailed over for someone to 'tweak' and then sent back. All that had been done was to up the fuel pressure and certain other 'ups'. The guy doing it put it back to 'standard' and then started doing his work............some nearly 2 hours later the map was loaded and on Dyno. A number of times this happened before settling on the best all round map. So nearly all day and then when driving back it was a totally different car.

So having been there on this day and then with my A7 in Holland .......which was half a day...... ask yourself how you can go to a 'specialist' that downloads your mapping emails it away and 20-30 mins you get it back and they tell you some 'magic' figures that the car will now attain!

Would be really interested in anyone that has gone the Cold Air Intake route and if it really did make a difference.

Has anyone used a K&N Air Filter and is there a 'difference'?

Look forward to hearing from you.

[steveshergill]

Hi guys,

I've just bought a new 2014 A6 bitdi.

I've read through the post and I can see that there were problems with remapping the ecu.

Would you recommend the tuning box?

Does anyone have one?

Were there any issues with it?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

[DBLincoln]

Steve

I would recommend the Tuning Box route but make stay away from Drake Tuning they look great but are unreliable......

I have them on a number of other vehicles and perhaps with the benefit of hindsight I should have gone that route at least until the vehicle is out of warranty.

The best one that I have come across is the CR Tuning in Germany. But you need to request a box that you can tune. The box will come setup and all you have to do is removed the engine cover and right at the front of the engine is the High Pressure Diesel Rail. Unplug the connector and couple the box in line. The box is on a lead and you simply run it along the existing cables so that is located away from the engine. You will notice both performance and economy increases.

The beauty is that this can be removed for servicing/warranty work.

If you want to 'tweak it' then all you do is remove the cover and adjust upwards small amounts at a time.....drive the vehicle under load (steep hill, power, low gear) until the high pressure diesel light appears on the dash. Take it back to previous setting and replace the cover. The fail light will reset itself.

Let me know how you get on.

Kind regards.............and Happy New Year all.

[steveshergill]

Thanks DBLincoln,

Much appreciated mate.

I will have a look at CR Tuning.

[Westyfield2]

If you're interested in proper custom remapping, have a chat with MRC Tuning.

[DBLincoln]

Hi Westyfield2

Do you have any idea on what the figures are for MRC Tuning? Do they setup on a rolling road or is it simply a download, modify and then upload?

Always interesting to see alternatives but I think that Steve's concern was Warranty Issues as a result of the remap.

Best wishes

[Westyfield2]

MRC are very much the best of the best with Audi tuning. Doug and Mihnea seriously know their stuff. They've got their own rolling road, and all the mapping is custom written by them in-house for your actual car.

[Whippy53]

It's only a warranty issue if it gets picked up. What's the chance of you invoking the warranty? Bit like playing poker, sometimes you get lucky. If it does get picked up it will seriously affect resale values. Your choice really.

[Westyfield2]

If keeping the warranty is important to you, have a look at ABT Tuning. They're AFAIK the only tuner approved by Audi UK, and are available at a couple of Audi dealerships including my local one.

[hshah]

Is the A6 BiTDI not available to build/configure online?

[Scott K]

Is the A6 BiTDI not available to build/configure online?

It is but it isn't called a BiTdi it is the 3.0 with 320ps.

[hshah]

It is but it isn't called a BiTdi it is the 3.0 with 320ps.

Ahh! Thanks :)

[flashypants]

Hi all, new to the site, loads of brilliant info and a fun evening spent taking a lot in!

Hi DB, I'm very tempted to tune... do you know of other tuning box companies to compare?

[Scott K]

Hi all, new to the site, loads of brilliant info and a fun evening spent taking a lot in!

Hi DB, I'm very tempted to tune... do you know of other tuning box companies to compare?

Look for posts by Jamiefc. He has one fitted - think it is a DTUK one. He looked at a few options so should manage to answer the question.

[flashypants]

Look for posts by Jamiefc. He has one fitted - think it is a DTUK one. He looked at a few options so should manage to answer the question.

Cheers Scott, much appreciated !

[fest0r]

DTUK yes but uprated map on it ( I'm not sure if its called a map but its not the standard one that comes with the DTUK box - you need to ask them to tweek it). I maybe down In Manchester soon so could let you see what my car is like. It'll be a few weeks right enough I'm i n Mexico at moment.

I thought your box was from tdi-tuning.co.uk :confused:

[flashypants]

DTUK yes but uprated map on it ( I'm not sure if its called a map but its not the standard one that comes with the DTUK box - you need to ask them to tweek it). I maybe down In Manchester soon so could let you see what my car is like. It'll be a few weeks right enough I'm i n Mexico at moment.

Thanks for the info Jamie, I'd really appreciate seeing the difference, plus knowing what the difference between the standard box and your tweaked box is as their figures only show final figures of 354 bhp and 750 nm. When your sig says exhaust tuning do you mean the kufatec? Does that make a big difference? I love throaty grumbles so could be tempted by that!