Dual Mass Fly Wheel symptoms???

[Chrisman]

Hi I've finally come to the conclusion that my flywheel is on its way out but thought I'd seek some valuable advice from you guys who are in the know.

Basically whenever I get to biting point the car makes a whirring sort of noise.
This initially only ever happened when the outside temp was cold but now it's happening in most conditions.
Today after a service on the 2.0 BKP I noticed that there is an initial chattering noise from the clutch area on start up which eventually settles.

I'm thinking DMF but would greatly appreciate your input guys!
Many thanks in advance
Chris

[Crasher]

Sounds like a DMF failure.

[Brycie]

Sorry to chime in on this thread, but I've learnt something new there Crasher. Most of the DMF failure symptoms I've heard people on the forum posting about have just been the judder at clutch biting point, which mine has too. I don't have the whirring or clattering noise & haven't noticed others with failing DMFs reporting those symptoms either. Would that say to you that Chrisman's failure is worse or further down the line towards complete failure than us others who only have the judder? Is that something I've got to look forward to if I don't get it changed? lol.

Again, sorry to butt in on the thread Chrisman, but if Crasher comes back to us, hopefully it'll give you an idea of how bad a state your dmf is in.

[martin1810]

The chattering sound is one of the most common signs of dmf failing. It usually sounds like you have two diesel engines under the bonnet. This is caused by the dmf springs becoming weak so the front plate vibrates against the back plate and makes a chattering noise. If you are lucky the plates jam together. If you are unlucky they become so loose that they smash each other apart and smash the bell housing. It's a good idea to change early because if the dmf plates move too far and jam, the fly wheel is a b*stard to get off .

[Crasher]

I often have to use an air powered disc cutter to chop out the centre section of the 220-mm flywheels used on 5 speeds as the centre rotates so far you cannot get the key in.

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd20/Crasher1964/twisted.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd20/Crasher1964/centrecutaway.jpg

[DSG4ME]

Am I right in thinking that a bad violent start like the car nearly doesn't fire and the whole lump feels like it's shaking too much is the DMF failing as well, or would you think starter motor, that's on a DSG btw, I did notice my mates Octavia do the same thing yesterday and it seems the hot weather isn't helping, to describe it better it's like the car starting on a bump start rather than using the key.

[giggsy07]

Iv a similar issue on a bkp 2.0 tdi.Groaning and slight clatter.Groaning/whirring could be loose release bearing on the clutch.at least thats what i think i have but im no expert unlike the Crash!!:)

[Crasher]

Just done a 2005 Allroad TDI today, the centre section of the flywheel was visibly off to one side, the nasty vibration has gone now.

[RK3559]

The chattering sound is one of the most common signs of dmf failing. It usually sounds like you have two diesel engines under the bonnet. This is caused by the dmf springs becoming weak so the front plate vibrates against the back plate and makes a chattering noise. If you are lucky the plates jam together. If you are unlucky they become so loose that they smash each other apart and smash the bell housing. It's a good idea to change early because if the dmf plates move too far and jam, the fly wheel is a b*stard to get off .

Hi Martin1018, can you (and everyone else), check you my 1min video of 2005 B6 TDI DSG BKP rattling sound.
Past month I've been through oil pump failure and injectors failure... I think now I'm in DMF failure.

Thank you, I'm very desperate!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quUVBkheot8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2

[martin1810]

I honestly can't tell. It does sound noisy but not so noisy that I would panic. I have old ears which don't help with noise diagnosis.:biglaugh:

[Chrisman]

Had a listen too and is a different sound from mine.
When i start the engine then go to the bonnet I hear a definate clattering sound as if there are a few pieces of metal rattling around until it settles.
Yours sounds no where near as exciting...yet mate if it is the DMF

[RK3559]

I honestly can't tell. It does sound noisy but not so noisy that I would panic. I have old ears which don't help with noise diagnosis.:biglaugh:

I just noticed that turning off the AC the sound of the engine was OK. Perhaps the load of the AC compressor changed the sound making it somehow DMF-ish.

My fellow mechanic told me to listen for a klang-klang sound when starting or stopping the engine.

So far I am safe. Apologies for my over-thinking, but I have a BKP engine and that seems the worst thing VW engineered so far.

Cheers

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2

[VWOwner5]

Hi, I've just joined the forum to look for Dual Mass Flywheel issues. The video clip you've posted (#9) sounds just like my (2 year old - TDI blumotion) VW Sharan which is being investigated at dealership - thankfully still under warranty. Mechanic said they've found iron filings in gear oil and are stripping things down to identify where they came from. Last thing we expected from car with under 20K miles on clock.

What's odd is gears seemed to be okay changing, rarely slipped and no unusual juddering. Main symptons of concern was the loud "tapping/rattling" noise when engine running in neutral - which would disappear when Clutch peddle pressed and noisy at traffic lights/stationery traffic. You could also hear the tapping/rattling at low speeds (30mph) with windows open and in gear.

I wasn't sure whether to post this under the VW Sharan threads, put thought I'd comment on your question.

I'm glad you got it sorted.

[martin1810]

Sounds like you have play in the gearbox input shaft, this often gets quieter when you depress the clutch.

[DSG4ME]

DMF sounds like pebbles in a washing machine, clutch action to stop it means as Martin said a layshaft or at best a thrust bearing.

[VWOwner5]

Sounds like you have play in the gearbox input shaft, this often gets quieter when you depress the clutch.

Thanks for info, would that also explain the iron filings in the gear box oil and what's likely to cause this in a newish car with low mileage?
Interesting the garage's not suggested it yet.

[martin1810]

Thanks for info, would that also explain the iron filings in the gear box oil and what's likely to cause this in a newish car with low mileage?
Interesting the garage's not suggested it yet.

A worn bearing or a bearing turning in it's housing can cause the fault but not usually the iron filings. Occasionally a shaft will have faulty case hardening and then it wears very quickly, that is just random bad luck.

[VWOwner5]

A worn bearing or a bearing turning in it's housing can cause the fault but not usually the iron filings. Occasionally a shaft will have faulty case hardening and then it wears very quickly, that is just random bad luck.

Hi Martin, garage got back - Not a worn bearing. They said springs in clutch broken and caused damage to gear box as well. They've stripped everything and replacing with new clutch, but rebuilding the gear box - using parts on order from Germany. They're not sure when parts will arrive nore did they say which ones. I did suggested they just put a new gear box in since it's still under warranty, but they stuck to rebuilding it.

[DSG4ME]

Hi Martin, garage got back - Not a worn bearing. They said springs in clutch broken and caused damage to gear box as well. They've stripped everything and replacing with new clutch, but rebuilding the gear box - using parts on order from Germany. They're not sure when parts will arrive nore did they say which ones. I did suggested they just put a new gear box in since it's still under warranty, but they stuck to rebuilding it.


I think theres some BS going on there, even if the springs are shot (which I guess they are) unless something has let go and made it's way into the gearbox there shouldn't be any need for GB work, and if that has happened they won't be re-building it anyway as it will need a new casing.

[rose5691]

Hi, I know this thread is old but am desperate to sort a problem- Audi A3 2l Tdi, 2005. When you switch the engine off there is a horrible rattle and nobody seems to be able to get to the bottom of it. Do you have any ideas?
Thanks,
John.

[Crasher]

Manual or DSG?

[rose5691]

It's manual
John.

[rose5691]

Quick update- the inlet flap is completely seized and needs replacing- not sure if that would cause the problem...?

John.

[Crasher]

It would make a rattling DMF sound even worse.

[turboextreme]

I usually verify a duel mass clutch failure by trying to reverse up hill, usually a failing duel mass will cause the engine to stall when under load resulting in you needing to ride the clutch pedal to stop it stalling.

[Crasher]

you needing to ride the clutch pedal to stop it stalling.

Yep, that should finish it off.......;)

[rose5691]

I usually verify a duel mass clutch failure by trying to reverse up hill, usually a failing duel mass will cause the engine to stall when under load resulting in you needing to ride the clutch pedal to stop it stalling.
Ok but if the inlet flap/anti shudder valve is seized and not working, when you switch the engine off will that cause the shudder and because of the way it makes the engine act abnormally would it cause excessive strain on the dmf and in turn create a clunking noise? - even if it is in perfect condition?

[Crasher]

No, even a brand new DMF will not rattle.

[DMitch16]

The ASV is self explanatory - when it's working it reduces shudder on shut down. When it's stuck open expect your b*lls to be shaken off when you stop the engine. Excess shudder / shaking can make a lot of things emit some strange noises. Had a DMF jam on a manual 2.0 CBDC a few months ago. Clutch bit at around 1cm from the floor, engine shook like it was on 3 cylinders, acceleration was non existent and fuel economy out the window. Had to drive it 60 miles to my garage on a busy Friday night at rush hour which took nearly 2 and a half hours. One of the worst driving experiences of my life and must have piffed off a lot of other drivers. Clutch was on the rivets, DMF scored then seized so had to be cut off. I found later that you can use a counter hold tool sometimes with a crank and flywheel lock to rotate the top plate back into position!

[rose5691]

Thanks for all the information- new asv unit being fitted on Wednesday so I will report back.

[rose5691]

...and if it doesn't turn out to be the dmf clunking, any other thoughts?

[rose5691]

https://youtu.be/1CdVaGVFaOQ
Clip of the sound.

[DMitch16]

https://youtu.be/1CdVaGVFaOQ
Clip of the sound.

Sounds pretty normal from the very brief video. Diesels hardly ever shut down without some sort of slight wobble or shake, just the nature of the beast. Gets a little more noticeable as the car piles on the miles. I can hear a slight over run of a pulley (a pitchy whirr) when it stops most likely a/c compressor, tensioner or alternator but the slight shudder is not excessive. Depending on where everything is in the engine rotation cycle mine ranges from a fairly quiet almost damped shutdown to one like yours. When my DMF was failing some years ago that did clank to an abrupt stop and you will be able to tell the difference.

I'm sure those in the Audi section will also concur that your issue is probably not the DMF.

[rose5691]

I might try and post a better video later. Driving myself mad here.:confused:

[DMitch16]

A video of the least 30 seconds to a minute of normal idle plus shutdown at the end. Sound is best recorded from the gearbox side of the engine (underneath at the gearbox bell housing gives a clearer sound when a DMF is rattling - usual care if you have the car up and / or are lying underneath with the engine running)

[rose5691]

https://youtu.be/Z4-1aHGB_Ow
Audi A3 - YouTube (https://youtu.be/f-OBRqAyiCk)

A couple more videos- what do you think?

[DMitch16]

There's no separation noise as far as I can tell (which would give a definite metallic clank), no interference with the gearbox gasket (there's a thin metal gasket between most VAG gearbox and engines which a failing DMF can catch making a nasty scratching or scraping noise) and little trace of knocking which excessive spring travel will give you. Shutdown sounds fine. A DMF test for manual cars is put it in first and let off the clutch to biting point holding the gear stick gently. If the DMF is starting to fail there is often significant shudder through your gearstick before it stalls. Unfortunately this is not a foolproof test as a bad clutch may also do the same.

[skomedal]

Just my twopeneth.

Normal diesel engine sound ( tractor like )

Keep us informed if/and when you find the prob.

[pilchnotts]

Hi there I have just been reading the threads and am clueless with cars. I have a 2009 Audi automatic and am told that the dual mass flywheel needs replacing at £1000. The car is 124k miles and 8 years old. The symptoms are on startin the engine when hot the engine feels like it’s shaking and huge vibration but just for a split second. It actually drives fine with normal performance. Also when cold it does not make the vibration noise. Would it make sense that the dmf is failing but why does it only do it when engine is hot?

[DMitch16]

Perhaps the guys in the Audi section would be more informed?

[Crasher]

What is your Audi?

[pilchnotts]

Hi it’s is 2.0 tdi s line. Automatic. Diesel.

[turboextreme]

Your Audi doesn't have the usual duel mass flywheel clutch it either has a Torque converter which creates drive or has a Wet clutch system as used in the DSG auto gearbox there is a technical fix to replace the standard auto transmission fluid to a mineral based one due to the wet clutches over heating. The engine shakes is possibly a sticking egr valve causing the engine to hunt briefly due to access carbon build up.

[pilchnotts]

Hi turboextreme. I have taken it to an Indy and they said flywheel, £805 to replace! Your reply has got me thinking but the Indy is very good and has a good reputation. Not sure what to do!

[Crasher]

Hi it’s is 2.0 tdi s line. Automatic. Diesel.

This will be the Multitronic CVT transmission (AKA "Multichronic") and these have a non friction face dual mass flywheel and are very prone to rattling which causes a wobbly idle.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4629/38903475754_bba34b8d8c_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/22gLtXY)

[pilchnotts]

Thanks crasher. This makes sense to me despite my lack of car knowledge.! I have booked in to get it replaced and hope to god that it fixes it. There was a slight shaky feeling a few weeks ago which was very subtle I thought nothing of it but now when hot it has this engine shake on starting. Do you think I have done the right thing?

[Crasher]

You could have booked it in with me....

[DMitch16]

You could have booked it in with me....


It's booked in elsewhere but probably not there yet...still time perhaps?:smashfrea:banghead::rolleyes::notworthy:Y ou_Rock_

[pilchnotts]

Crasher. Where are you based? What’s your business number?

[Neil1664]

Hi all,
Apologies for getting on the back end of this thread; I've searched but haven't found anything on my prob & new to here too & I'd appreciate any advice...
I have a 2013 VW CC 2.0TDI 177bhp blue Motion DSG on 66k miles; a couple of weeks ago the car suddenly developed a 'tinny' rattle, and me being more of a sledge hammer swinger than a spanner operator (I'm a tower crane erector, brake pads & tyres are about my limit haha!) I put it into a reputable VAG indy specialist hoping it wouldn't be too serious...
Bad news was, the starter motor gear wasn't returning properly causing it to 'grind' against the flywheel thus eating away the gear teeth on both & knackering the flywheel so both were replaced, with new genuine VW parts & with labour just shy of £1500.
But now, after only1 day & 60 odd miles it's now making a grinding/scraping noise increasing & decreasing with engine revs, whether the car is moving or stationary.
Could someone give me a clue please? Do I take it back to them? Would the parts/labour have any sort of warranty or would I have to pay again?
I'd really appreciate any input & thanks in advance.

[DMitch16]

You should have some sort of warranty on the work they've done - take it back to them to sort.

[Neil1664]

Thanks Mad Mtch