VW GOLF MK4 Rear Caliper and Discs change but now no brakes. PLEASE HELP

[CGMK4]

My brother is a training mechanic, and offered to change my brake discs ready for MOT this coming week. However, in the process found the caliper was completely seized, so I replaced it.

But now after bleeding the brakes on every side of the car, the brake pedal still goes striaght down to the floor and there are no brakes. The pedal is totally soft, goes straight to the floor with the gentlest push. The only thing we couldn't do is the ABS as I have read about bleeding that, but you need a special computer (??). I've heard that the brakes on MK4's can be a pain, but seriously! I would NEVER do this again, I would always book it to a garage.

What makes it even worse is that my MOT is due this week, and I can not get it to the garage as my Dad has just sold his trailer. The good thing is, if worst comes to worst, I do not pay labour or for the MOT as it's my mate who does it. I just pay trade for parts. But I NEED my car back for college, work and I have a daughter so I need to transport her. Plus I have been without my car for a week and it's getting stupid now. What can I do?! ANY ADVICE WOULD BE APPRECIATED!
Thank you.

[geoff eeles]

was the caliper a new or one from a scrappy? the piston in it might be broken. Have you checked that all the nuts/bolts etc tight? Servo may have possibly gone? it could be a mulitple of things i am afraid to say mate.

[CGMK4]

Well, was on a tight budget but was from the scrappy. But all nuts and bolts done up fine. Would it just be worth waiting until the MOT this week and getting them to have a look, they obviously can't pass it with brakes like that, so they would need to put it right. Proper gutted thought :(

[phil miller]

On the master cylinder there are 2 7mm bleed nipples, full the res and bleed them first, then do the N/S/R, O/S/R, N/S/F and then O/S/F and see if that makes any difference, it sounds to me like the res went empty and has a little air in the MC

[CGMK4]

Okay, thanks. I will try that tomorrow. Fingers crossed it works. Someone told me I may need to replace the master cylinder... Is that a possibility?

[Crasher]

In the days before tinterweb was common, this was one of the most common questions we were asked on a Monday morning, right from when the Teves Mk20 system reached to DIY world in around 1999/2000 on the 1995 Golf 3 with it becoming an epidemic on the Golf 4. With the advent of forums we don't get asked this one often now but I very much doubt the MC is faulty, you have got air into the ABS pump and there is only one way that is going to come out. Bleeding the MC 2x8-mm bleed nipples will help but ultimately if air gets into the ABS pump it has to be forced out using the diagnostic computer procedure, a battery charger (as the battery often goes flat without) and a pressure brake bleeder is a huge asset.

[geoff eeles]

god bless the British Bloke who invented the internet.

[CGMK4]

Right I am adament it is the MC then. I have EVERYONE suggesting that. And I am quite happy that it is a common problem really. Quite ironic really, when I bought the car in 2009 everyone said 'VW, oh yeah brilliant cars, but when they go wrong, they go very and expensivly wrong.' My reply: 'Nah, I'm sure mine will be fine.' Since then, I've had a lower suspension arm rust out, some of the bottom rust out, aircon pump go wrong twice, car broken into and destroy the electric window system and now this with the brakes. Anyone think I may have jynxed myself? Plus, being a 21 year old girl, I only have the ability to change a flat tyre but it pretty much ends there. So yeah godbless the internet and my training mechanic brother and HGV mechanics being my Dad and cousin. Thank you for your responses. It's going to really help :)

[phil miller]

Right I am adament it is the MC then. I have EVERYONE suggesting that. And I am quite happy that it is a common problem really. Quite ironic really, when I bought the car in 2009 everyone said 'VW, oh yeah brilliant cars, but when they go wrong, they go very and expensivly wrong.' My reply: 'Nah, I'm sure mine will be fine.' Since then, I've had a lower suspension arm rust out, some of the bottom rust out, aircon pump go wrong twice, car broken into and destroy the electric window system and now this with the brakes. Anyone think I may have jynxed myself? Plus, being a 21 year old girl, I only have the ability to change a flat tyre but it pretty much ends there. So yeah godbless the internet and my training mechanic brother and HGV mechanics being my Dad and cousin. Thank you for your responses. It's going to really help :)

Please try and bleed the system again, as i and Crasher have said, if that still makes no difference then look at the MC, a re bleed will only cost fluid but a new MC will cost alot more

[geoff eeles]

listen to these men. they are Guru's and saved me a packet.

[shabazmo]

You are not the only one who has done this. I did my mates mk4 Golf, removed the rear caliper due to stiff piston and somehow got air in the abs system. I used the suction method of bleeding. After using 1 litre of brake fluid without success, I took it to a VW specialist who bled the abs module as per Crashers instructions and improved it a lot, but not perfect. He tried it again 2 weeks later and got all the air out. He said he used about 10 litres of brake fluid. Save your time and take it to a specialaist who buys brake fluid cheaper than you and I. Cost me about £80 in the end.

[Crasher]

I did one that had been fitted with three new MC's, in desperation I (me, myself) fitted another one and it did not help. If you fit a new MC you will still have to do a basic bleed as if you don't you will still be left with a squidgy pedal. One key characteristics of this problem is if the pedal feels OK with the engine off and feels **** with it running, you have air in the pump.

[CGMK4]

After about 4 different mechanics bleeding the brakes and about 18 hours of bleeding later, I got so frustrated, so I asked a mechanic in my village to try. He took it, three hours later brought it back. The brakes were much better, but not 100% perfect. But I'm not too bothered as I finally have it back. Just a pain the MOT ran out yesterday. Oh well, fingers crossed it passes LOT. Thanks for all the great advice. If I had to advise someone on this problem. I would say just keep bleeding the brakes until they are better. Nothing else was wrong, just lots of air.

[shabazmo]

I know you are a bit far away but The Phirm in Hartley Wintney Hampshire did mine.

[Crasher]

It needs a Basic Settings pressure bleed.

[Grandad Dave]

I have found this thread really helpful - I have similar problem. So now after reading this I think I need to get to a garage with computer would you agree?

My problem started like this -

1. Drove wife's car to quickly get to Docs - heard warning go and thought windscreen washer! It was not that warning and within minutes - no brakes.

2. Got back on tarmac drive and saw fluid leaked onto drive. Put car over my pit in garage.

3. NR Side rear hand brake mechanism on caliper leaking out. All fluid gone.

4. Replaced caliper and bled brakes.

5. Road tested - still not right. Pedal going straight down - but - ABS light out.

6. Bled brakes again and thought it all leads to MC gone.

NOW - after reading this thread especially Crashers advice, I am thinking that I need to go to my local garage (not VW specialist) and get a pressure brake bleeder done as described here.

Note: I did read that you can bleed the MC on here - but - in Haynes manual it states not to touch this. So have left MC alone.

Your thoughts would be very much appreciated as to which route you would take. (Not to Docs !!!!)

[shabazmo]

If your local garage says its easy, don't bother, you need someone that recognises that this is a pig of a job that might take them a couple of hours and several attempts to get it right. If they have done it before they will know what I mean.

[Crasher]

It can be a real sod to get the air out, they make me want to scream sometimes when I have bled the master cylinder and been through the procedure three times and still the pedal sinks as does my heart and both legs are aching after pumping the pedal 4876 times! This needs to be done by someone who knows EXACTLY the procedure and how to run through output tests on each wheel after and then bleed them through again. I have been known to get through 10 litres of brake fluid doing this. One a few years ago drove me to distraction. Four garages had had it before me, two of them both my local main dealers, and all four had fitted a new master cylinder, the last garage fitting a cheap and nasty Chinese thing. I fitted a genuine MC and bled it through and still it would not play ball. I got through 25 litres of Würth DOT 4 and still the pedal sank as soon as you started the engine. In the end I went through the car with a fine tooth comb and found little marks on the rear brake hoses and I knew straight away that someone had used a proper pipe clamp on the hose. These are braided stainless steel under the simple black plastic cover and they crush if clamped. Anyway, after removing the rear caliper you MUST replace the rear hose anyway, the banjo seals are one time only. After fitting two new rear hoses and going through the whole bleeding [sic] palaver again we got a pedal to be proud of, and a world shortage of brake fluid!

[Grandad Dave]

Before reading your feedback above - I had taken the car to my local garage.

We wound back all caliper brake pad pistons and replaced all pads.
We then pressure bled brakes using a Sealey Pressure Tester from the Master Cylinder resevoir.
Bleeding calipers individually.
Removed about half pint of brake fluid from each caliper.

Checked brakes and they are still 'soft'. He came to conclusion I may need a new MC.

So......

Now reading, Crasher, your bit about the replacing of the rear hoses I think that should be my next move. Do you agree?

Thanks to both of you for feedback - really helpful.

[shabazmo]

Not necessarily. The first thing to do is leave your local garage for this job. They may be good at lots of things but this one needs experience and a die hard determination. Unless your local garage clamped the hoses, there should be no reason to replace them. Find a specialist. Where are you based? and how much have you spent in this so far.

[Grandad Dave]

First of all -

1. I have not bled the Master Cylinder so should I? (As I said previously the Haynes Manual said not to touch MC)
2. I replaced one caliper from new. The other I took off to push the piston back in to replace the pads.
3. I have not re-newed hoses as they have not been 'crushed'. I will if it is recommended by you guys ......

As far as my friendly garage I have only paid him £30 so far because he knows me and appreciates that I used to be a diesel merchanic (we have known each other for years) and I do all my own repairs. This one has me stumped.

I am just trying to make sure that I have checked/replaced, etc - all that 'you' would have done. Then if all else fails may just have to go elsewhere and we do have a VW specialist in the area (Somerset) but know they are very costly.

I am retired so can give the vehicle 'time' to work it out but know if it needs computer aided technology I cannot do it alone.

[zollaf]

there should be a bleed nipple on the mc. if you don't crack this open to bleed it then any air trapped in there won't travel into a pipe to escape due to the pipes not being the highest point.

[Grandad Dave]

Thank you so it looks like I need to bleed the MC before anything else is tried.

[Crasher]

They need bleeding according the the VW instructions, only then can you decide if anything else needs replacing.

[Grandad Dave]

I have bled according to Haynes Manual for this car. I now have had it pressure bled in the sequence recommended.

Now on Monday my plan is to -

1. Replace hoses and banjo seals/copper washers, then bleed again in sequence manually i.e. 2 man job.

Note: Why I ask about bleeding the MC is I notice in your earlier post, Crasher, with the problems you encountered was that you say in the first sentence about having bled the master cylinder but now on reflection do you mean a new one - carried out on the bench?

I know that this the MC was emptied because as I said the NR side rear H/Brake mechanisim on caliper had leaked fluid out.

All your expertise and thoughts on this forum is really appreciated.

[Doctle Odd]

You deffo need to bleed the master FIRST follow Crashers instructions re order of bleeding. This should give you brakes. You may still need VCDS to cycle the ABS pump

[Grandad Dave]

I feel quite inadequate, given my years of working on our cars, does bleeding the MC mean it can be done in situ? I have seen video on doing one on the bench but could I do this without removing it?

Thanks

[Doctle Odd]

I don't remove them there are 2 bleed nipples under the master, Don't worry mate plenty of experienced mechanics (and a few self taught grease monkeys) have been caught out with this little problem

[Grandad Dave]

'Under' - so is it easy to get to?

The next questions are -

1. Is there a set procedure for doing this e.g. Is it the MC first or the brakes?
2. On MC is there a sequence for the bleed nipples e.g. front first or rear?

3. Then for brakes I use sequence as in Haynes -

RH rear
LH rear
RH front
LH front

Thanks and for your encouragement and help.

[Doctle Odd]

It's the master first then I bleed the nearest first then the inner one. Bleed as normal after that furthers wheel first etc keep a close eye on the levels maybe better to allow for a complete fluid change it's supposed to be done every 2 years anyway. What method do you use for bleeding? pressure, vacuum, 2 man ...It's theoretically easy just open the bleed nipples and let out the air. In practice its a hoorish nightmare frustrating soul destroying work. Very satisfying when you eventually drive on to gravel and feel the ABS kicking in when you brake firmly.

[Grandad Dave]

First of all - for this job - I have done a complete new fluid change.

So are you saying -

1. MC - bleed nearest nipple first and then the inner one?
2. I use the two man (wife) method. However, did have a pressure one done at garage on Friday to try and cure problem.

Is MC easy to get to?

Thanks

[Doctle Odd]

The MC is easy enough to get to and the wife method is quite effective (I have the wife well trained) Gulp! I use a Sealey Vacuum bleeder and an easibleed, Halfords finest @ 5 quid.as well. Allow for a gallon of brake fluid minimum and check all the rubber hoses for pinch marks, they should never be clamped just use a bit of cling film on the reservoir to slow down the flow and change the part as quickly as you can. Any clamped hoses are useless and must be replaced. Youre going to need VCDS to get the job completed properly there may be someone near you with it, see map on the site

[Grandad Dave]

Thank you - I think I'm there now. Wife doesn't think so.....

Fingers crossed I have now got a plan.

[Doctle Odd]

I have had several plans over the years some were so cunning you could smear them in Colgate and brush your teeth with them, bit I'm still poor the wife's still here ...
Thank you - I think I'm there now. Wife doesn't think so.....

Fingers crossed I have now got a plan.

[Grandad Dave]

I have one as well....sending wife out to do job!

[Crasher]

There are two 8-mm bleed nipples on top of the master cylinder and it is near impossible to get a pipe and spanner on these so we use a 1/4" drive deep 8-mm socket and let the fluid run being delivered by the pressure bleeder, after a few seconds they can be closed off. Then wash the area down with copious amounts of water and move on to conventionally bleeding the front and rear brakes, then bleed the front brake using a diagnostic computer in Basic Settings 04. On earlier Mk20 pumps this is a rigid 17 step process that MUST be completed or a code will be stored and the ABS light will stay on until the procedure is completed. On the later Mk60 pump there is no set process and so I usually go through five steps.

[Grandad Dave]

Thanks to you all for your help. Yesterday changed flexi pipes, as advised, pressure bled brakes and MC. Have now got brakes!

(NOW - need to look on Forum as driver's door has decided to fly open.)

[Keyser-Soze]

It can be a real sod to get the air out, they make me want to scream sometimes when I have bled the master cylinder and been through the procedure three times and still the pedal sinks as does my heart and both legs are aching after pumping the pedal 4876 times! This needs to be done by someone who knows EXACTLY the procedure and how to run through output tests on each wheel after and then bleed them through again. I have been known to get through 10 litres of brake fluid doing this. One a few years ago drove me to distraction. Four garages had had it before me, two of them both my local main dealers, and all four had fitted a new master cylinder, the last garage fitting a cheap and nasty Chinese thing. I fitted a genuine MC and bled it through and still it would not play ball. I got through 25 litres of Würth DOT 4 and still the pedal sank as soon as you started the engine. In the end I went through the car with a fine tooth comb and found little marks on the rear brake hoses and I knew straight away that someone had used a proper pipe clamp on the hose. These are braided stainless steel under the simple black plastic cover and they crush if clamped. Anyway, after removing the rear caliper you MUST replace the rear hose anyway, the banjo seals are one time only. After fitting two new rear hoses and going through the whole bleeding [sic] palaver again we got a pedal to be proud of, and a world shortage of brake fluid!

Crasher could you please advise on the following, I joined the forum to seek your help specifically as you seem to know more about this than anyone else I have read about, I would be really grateful for your expertise.

Backgound - I've had my MK4 Golf (AGR) for over 10 years & do all my own work, have latest genuine VCDS/Vagcom & access to Elsawin 4.0, I'm also a member on most of the well known VW forums, but no-one seems to have as much knowledge of this issue than you.

Handbrake wasn't holding very well & car is due for MOT on 13th Dec, so got to work sorting it out.



I bought genuine seals from TPS & a set of Sharan handbrake springs, stripped calipers and true enough Rear Right was stuck & showing signs of corrosion on piston.
Cleaned everything, replaced seals & piston boot covers, brand new bleed nipples (replaced all 4 front & back, as 3 had seized).
Proceeded to bleed system (2 man method, topping up reservoir).
Bled Master Cylinder (2 bleed nipples - Front 1st, Rear 2nd)
Bled RL > RR > FL > FR.
Ignition OFF - Pedal is great & brake pressure 100% - NO LEAKS
Ignition ON - Pedal terrible & goes to floor.
Proceeded to bleeding ABS with VCDS(Vagcom) & EZ Bleed system - This is where the problem starts.
I have been through the ABS Bleeding procedure 6 TIMES & also pressure bled each caliper & master cylinder.
Used approx 12L of DOT 4 in the whole process.
Ignition OFF - Again pedal is great & brake pressure 100%
Ignition ON - Pedal slightly better, but still spongy/soft and travels to floor with a bit of force.

What would you advise as the next step, continue with the whole bleeding procedure from hell over & over until I get a pedal?

I also read one of you other posts mentioning bleeding using the Output Test function (I have been through it, but didn't bleed while doing it) could you explain how you do this or have I picked you up wrongly?

Any help would be appreciated as I'm sure you know this issue is frustrating as hell!

[Crasher]

You went to all that trouble with the rear calipers when a decent recon is £55 and a brand new TRW unit less than £100! I did one today, an Octavia 2003 with the Mk60 system and oddly rear drum brakes (yours will be Mk20) and it was being a sod, we must have gone through 5 litres of fluid and suddenly, there was a pedal, there is no hard and fast way to do this, it often takes some improvisation. Firstly, bleed the master cylinder as you have done. I have never used the bleeding system you are using, I use a Sykes Pickavant electric pressure bleeder which is irreplaceable and nothing I can find will work as well, it's ropey but keeps going with repairs-even Sykes won't help me with it! Anyway, I build the pressure in the reservoir to 1.55 bar (its pre-set cut off value I found to be spot on) and then with me in the comfort seat, two chaps under car with bottles in hand await. At the same time you MUST have the battery on charge, no joke, this is important. Now in the procedure for the Mk20 system (look in the ID box in the top right) this is a SPECIFIC 17 step procedure you MUST follow or it WILL put the ABS light on with an un-deletable code until you do complete the process. Go into Basic settings 04 group 001 and then follow the on screen instructions TO THE LETTER, well as best you can. When finished what I also do is go into output tests and run the pump to pump fluid through all four corners whilst it is running as well as pumping the pedal. It needs to be started for each corner. Then I run the wheel lock output test for each corner (the screen tells you what should happen) and then bleed again. We did this today and it went straight through the MOT after failing for pedal drop. If that is not clear, blame the Spanish wine industry and call me at work on 01159785740...hopefully I will be sober...

[Keyser-Soze]

Crasher,

Thanks for taking the time to reply, I really do appreciate it.

I know the cost of calipers are relatively cheap, but TPS didn't have them in stock at the time & needed to get the job done - hence the seal rebuild. Cost of seals & bleed nipples only came to £20 inc vat.

Yes your correct I do have the Mk20 pump & have followed the VCDS 17 step bleed procedure to the letter 6 times over now.

The EZ bleed system is a very basic pressure bleed system that only holds about 500ml in the bottle (pain in the backside having to refill it every 2 steps) & connects onto the spare tyre to give pressure, we have pressure bled at 14.5psi (0.999 bar) and also 20psi (1.378 bar). I'm going to build my own 5L pressure bleeder & will try your pressure recommendation (1.55 bar/22.480 psi).

I will also try bleeding through the output test as you have outlined above, hopefully I get a good pedal after all this!

Once again thanks for you advice & I will report back with an update.

[Keyser-Soze]

Small update - Due to a new issue with the car refusing to start (turned over but not firing), I had no time to work on the brakes further and had no choice but to put the car through the MOT test. It passed with no issues at all, although I will be going back onto bleeding the brakes again very soon, as I know the pedal is not what it was or should be.

Hopefully will get the chance to do this over the next week or 2, will update when I can.