Judder when pulling away in first gear on cold mornings

[mhurer]

I've had an 58 plate 2.0 TDI S-line manual for 2 months now.

Not sure if it is my driving style or a problem with the car but it suffers from clutch judder when pulling away in 1st gear first thing in the morning, and this continues for the first couple of miles until the car warms up.

Only way to stop it is to ride the clutch and use high revs. Is this normal?

[magt1000]

Flywheel problem?

[markp306]

Yes, I get the same symptom - 143SE with average mileage.

I'm not sure what is going on, but it is more consistent in the cold weather. Incidentally, I also first experienced this issue in a traffic jam on a particularly hot day last summer, so could be extremes of temperature?

Camberley Audi and my wife conveniently haven't been able to recreate the problem, so they must slip the clutch with higher revs than me? Thanks for clearing that one up! :D

But, inconveniently, the car is now out of warranty although the problem is logged on Audi UK's systems for future reference should something fail and turn out not to be wear and tear. Audi "want a signature" for 3 hours labour to inspect, but they want to recreate the issue first. (I guess that makes sense though).

Reading previous threads, I think other B8 drivers have had better luck with their garage just getting on with it and swapping parts.

[mhurer]

Thanks for the reply - glad to hear it's not just me.

Not sure if there is an inherent fault or the fact it was a little warmer this morning, but i also modified my driving style this morning by letting the clutch up slower in combination with a few extra revs, and didn't have the problem. One time I could feel it about to judder so I just dipped the clutch a bit and let it up a bit slower. Could be my driving style needs to change to accomodate the characteristics of the car.

This was originally my wife's company car and I bought it last month from the lease company, with 30k on the clock. I rarely drove it but my wife mentioned she had the problem initially and it just took her a little while to adapt her driving style as well.

I remember having a similar problem when I changed from my petrol passat to a diesel passat.

Hoping it's just a case of me getting used to the car rather than some sort of problem.

[MFGF]

My previous A6 2.0TDi and my current A6 2.0TDi have this issue occasionally - usually on cold wet winter mornings. I suspect it is condensation on the clutch/flywheel - it clears up as the car begins to warm up. I have never been able to demonstrate it to the dealer as it has stopped juddering within the first mile or two. Either I am very, very unlucky in getting two cars (with different engines) with the same mysteriously disappearing occasional fault, or else it is just a feature of the particular design.

Cheers!

MF.

[jakerade]

I have had a new clutch and flywheel and it doesnt feel much better than the original one! I have also queried why the clutch sits higher than the brake pedal and have been told this is normal

This might sound a little weird, but the clutch pedal set-up is pretty unergonomic and have found that the pedal is being operated by the middle of my shoe rather than the tip which give poorer feel and more of a juddering sensation so have recently adjusted my seating position to try and counter act.

As an aside i have also looked at the way I walk (I know this sounds strange) and since I have have had the B8 (3 and a bit years), my right foot is out to right slightly which is obviously a side effect of the stupid off set driving position and effectively rolling my foot to use the accelerator. I am not sure I can claim that under warranty?

[Bratty]

I just thought it was one of the idiosyncraceis of a Dual-Mass Flywheel? It like it needs to get into its stride and balance the forces that are being generated before settling down?

Mine would do it (Sometimes!) But only briefly as the OP stated on first starting up and driving off!

Dunk

[John140]

My old B7 A4 2.o TDI did this on cold mornings all of its life, my current B8 2.0 TDI isn't as bad but will do it for the first couple of gearchanges on a cold damp morning if the car hasnt been used for a day or so. I would suspect that if it clears up after you have pulled away say twice there is nothing to worry about, just condensation.

[Mickyd98]

I'v been having the same issue with my 2008 A4 (143 TDI SE - 74k miles) since I got it a few months back. Its Damn annoying for the first couple of miles. The emission control light came on today so plugged in the vag-com and I've an error message P2103 and P2102 Throttle Valve Actuator Module. Could this be related??

I'm planning to do a clean and throttle body adaptation in the next week or so to see if this helps? I'm thinking if throttle flap is "sticky" first thing this is causing the problem? Thoughts?? I'll let you know how I get on!

[mhurer]

Hi. I've just got this code (P2102) as well and was wondering how you solved the problem.

[Mickyd98]

I booked the car into a local independant Audi dealer. Diagnosed the fault as throttle body actuator. Replaced under 3rd party warranty. Part was £178.90+vat. 1hrs labour in line with what warranty company would pay according to book figures. All in it cost approx £220+vat.

I noticed prior to fix I would get an intermittent blink of a warning light in the instrument cluster. This I was told was the fault occurring. After fix this has gone away.

Car still has initial shudder first thing. Goes away after a few gear changes.

Thanks

Mike

[mhurer]

Thanks for the quick reply.

Sounds like I have the same thing. Noticed yesterday and today an intermittent blink of light which looked like the glow plug warning light (the coil). Now the engine emission light is on and getting code P2102. Code has been cleared by RAC man, but guess it will come back soon. I also have an extended warranty with WarranyWise, so will be a good test to see if they pay up. I guess they won't be interested until fault code reappears.

Did you notice any improvement in MPG after it was changed as mine seems to be pretty bad at the moment?

[Mickyd98]

Can't really say I noticed an improvement in mpg. I only bought the car recently so not a lot of history. I slap asked the garage to replace fuel cap solenoid while it was booked in. Warranty covered the job at £8 for parts and an hour labour.

Quite a common fault therefore ask garage to scan for solenoid fault code too

Thanks

Mike

[Sportwag]

I have clutch judder but it happens when the car is warm and is fairly well laden i.e. with four or more occupants or luggage - it is virtually impossible to move off in first gear without clutch judder. Even after a 300 mile trip it does it. Less noticeable with just me in the car. Any clues?

[jakerade]

my dealer replaced the flywheel and clutch although it does still do it occasionally :(

[ianmiles]

lucky you lot. When mine started to do that the clutch went about an hour later.

[shazstar]

Hi

I have a 54 plate GOLD GT TDI auto. In first gear or reverse if you let go of the brake there is a sligh judder (almost like the car is in the wrong gear) and then its perfect straight after and all the way through the gears.

Anyone know what this might be?

Also, Emmissions workshop light is on but im guessing this is completely seperate

Thanks

[derekm]

My clutch aslo judders in mornings for the first few pull aways in first gear. Car is MY08 2.0 TDI 143 75K miles.
I dont think its any thing serious to worry about.

[markp306]

I have clutch judder but it happens when the car is warm and is fairly well laden i.e. with four or more occupants or luggage - it is virtually impossible to move off in first gear without clutch judder. Even after a 300 mile trip it does it. Less noticeable with just me in the car. Any clues?

I experienced that once last year crawling through a traffic jam on a very hot day. Two adults, 2 young kids and a push chair, so not exactly a full load. It only did it once but it was really bad and I just could not pull away smoothly no matter what I tried.

Normally, like everyone else here, its a cold morning issue. The workaround seems to be to pull away with extra revs. The "downside" is the engine is at typically at peak torque, so the car will take off from the lights eagerly (with other drivers muttering comments about ex-BMW drivers, boy racers and other choice words). ;)

[chipped3]

The judder IS condensation on the flywheel caused by humidity levels that can change rapidly on damp mornings. Your Dual Mass Flywheel cannot react to the change in temp and any damp air condenses on the cold flywheel. The DMF probably has a small amount of play which is causing a very slight wobble as the plate engages the 'wet' flywheel causing the judder.
I live in a mid Wales valley and it happened to my 2002 TDI Passat when still under Warranty in the winter of 2004. VW replaced the clutch plate which showed no appreciable wear which did not cure the problem so replaced both DMF and complete clutch. A year later it happened again. I spoke to LUK, the DMF manufacturer, whose Technical Dept explained the problem of condensation and the judder when coupled with some small wear in the DMF.

The remedy is to dip the clutch pedal, gently rev the engine which will throw off any moisture quite quickly to dispel the moisture then feed in the clutch pedal slowly to 'evaporate' the remaining moisture.. my car has now done over 100k since the new DMF/Clutch and is easily managed on those few odd mornings of changing humidity. Do not allow the clutch to 'judder' at low revs when you start......slip it slighty as above and you can manage this issue easily. Once dry the problem doesn't occur. I posted the above some years ago on UKPassats and this site too under Passat B5.5.(chipped2 then)

[Sportwag]

I have had the Dual Mass Flywheel, Clutch and Release Bearing replaced under warranty = no judder. Glad it was repaired whilst stil under warranty!

[Monktopus]

I'm having this very same problem looked at right now. I don't buy all this condensation stuff as the car they've lent me is exactly the same as mine, admittedly brand new, and doesn't do it at all under any conditions. They've said it might be the springs that hold the two sections of flywheel together, (greek to me), and are checking it out under warranty. They've had the car over a week so I'm hoping that means they're fixing it under warranty, i.e. not calling me for authorization.

Will keep you all posted as this seems to bra common complaint with much interest on here.

Cheers

[markp306]

That's interesting. What car do you have and what is the loaner? 143TDI?

[Monktopus]

They are both 143 tdi's, both b8 s-line. Mine is a 58 plate with 60k on it bought approved last November and the loaner is a 61 that had 14 miles on it when they gave it to me. Only difference is mine is a saloon and theirs an estate but don't suppose that makes any difference at all.

[Monktopus]

Also the clutch in the new car feels massively lighter than in mine. Could that be significant?

[mhurer]

Yes, I was in a similar position - had a 61 plate loan car same spec as my 58 plate car, and the clutch did feel a lot lighter on the loan car.

In terms of the judder problem, it does seem to be temperature related and possibly in combination with wear and tear, as it only happens on mine when cold. This week, for example, temp dropped one day to about 6 degrees and I had the judder, but not on any other morning. Seems that some people have had a whole load of components changed under warranty (e.g. clutch, DMF) and although it does solve the problem for a while, the problem does seem to return, which is why I suspect it could be condensation combined with wear and tear of one or more components. But i'm no expert!

Hope the problem does get sorted and it is a quick and cheap fix - can't afford a new clutch and DMF!

[Sportwag]

I drove a Zafira hire car recently, the clutch was like a feather and it took a while to get used to. Had a 2012 B8 136bhp courtesy car and it too had a much lighter clutch. Even with the new clutch, DMF and release bearing the pedal in my car is extremely heavy. Don't remember it being like this when new so it must be age related.

Didn't like the 136bhp - had a couple of scary moments when pulling out in 1st and nothing happens (before the engine wakes up). Guess it is down to the power v's economy mapping although the economy was worse than my 143 (albeit the 136bhp has done fewer miles).

[chipped3]

Sportwag,
Your clutch should not be any heavier than before. Was the same make of DMF/clutch replaced, usually LUK. Have you bled your clutch when the brakes are done every 2 years? Do you drive it Hard as you do need to keep the engine clean otherwise a diesel will be sluggish. I tow caravan/boat/trailer so it gets plenty of pull up hills to keep engine clean.
My car is a 2002 Passat TDi Sport Estate PD 130 6-speed with 157K miles, fitted for the last 90K with a Tunit Chip. The acceleration and economy are excellent with no flat spots and pulls like a train. Would be loathe to replace with the later Passat model or to go Audi. I do like the A4 s-line but again it has engine and auto handbrake issues.

[jakerade]

the new 2012 car seems to have a much improved clutch - drove a 177 quattro the other day and it was so much better than my 170TDI which had a new clutch and flywheel last summer

[chipped3]

Suppose time will tell whether the DMF/clutch assembly has been modified to reduce the wear that takes place between the two parts of the DMF which seems to be the contributory factor since the condensation issue has always been present.

I'm probably worse of than most owners as I live in a Welsh river valley that is late to get the sun in the winter, have a steep drive from startup and have the PD Sport AVF engine which has more torque plus a chip which enhances it further. If my drive was downhill I probably would never have experienced judder as the clutch engagement would have been while rolling downhill and the moisture would have already been thrown off which is why now use more revs and slip the clutch gently to burn/throw off the moisture. It has worked for the past 90K.

[Sportwag]

Sportwag,
Your clutch should not be any heavier than before. Was the same make of DMF/clutch replaced, usually LUK. Have you bled your clutch when the brakes are done every 2 years? Do you drive it Hard as you do need to keep the engine clean otherwise a diesel will be sluggish. I tow caravan/boat/trailer so it gets plenty of pull up hills to keep engine clean.
My car is a 2002 Passat TDi Sport Estate PD 130 6-speed with 157K miles, fitted for the last 90K with a Tunit Chip. The acceleration and economy are excellent with no flat spots and pulls like a train. Would be loathe to replace with the later Passat model or to go Audi. I do like the A4 s-line but again it has engine and auto handbrake issues.

It's not any heavier than before the clutch and DMF was replaced but it is noticeably heavier than anything else I have driven recently. Don't remember it being this heavy when new so it must be an age related thing (gets heavier over time with use).

[Monktopus]

As promised here is an update on my car which was in at the dealers who were investigating clutch judder when pulling away, not just on cold mornings but admittedly it was worse then.

They took the car apart and found that the bearing in the centre of the flywheel was damaged and causing grease to leak onto the parts around. They replaced the clutch, flywheel and all ancillary small parts and I collected the car yesterday. It's like driving a new car again and as they lent me a brand new equivalent car for the time they had mine I can say that with confidence! The clutch is as light as the one in the new loan car, (mine was much heavier, possibly due to the problem, possibly due to age. Who knows?!) and there was zero judder yesterday. The car has been sitting on my drive all night so driving it this morning will be the acid test I guess but so far so very good, particularly as it was all done under warranty.

Hope it lasts....

[chipped3]

Great news. Thanks for the update.

[markp306]

I've had my 143TDI fixed now too. Exactly the same symptom and outcome as Monktopus above!

[col66]

i have had my a4 b8 for around 7 weeks now, it seems to have developed a clutch judder with in last 2 weeks, but mine seems to be every time in 1st gear, weather conditions or driving time dont make any difference at all, its there all the time but only in 1st gear, if i rev it to 1600 revs it seems to be less of a judder or in other gears it dont do it, but i found if my steering wheel is turned as i set off it doesnt judder, any 1 help with this at all ??

[gtsloz19]

Hi all,

Just thought I'd update you all on our car, our problem was the same as above and we had been fobbed off by the garage as they stated that the judder was moisture on the clutch plate.
We weren't having this and now the car is in again with them.
Just heard that the flywheel is goosed and also needs a new clutch, bare in mind the car has only covered 35k. This is really disappointing considering its meant to be a high class marque.
Luckily we opted for the warranty which is covering the DMF and the garage has buckled to buying the clutch as a good will gesture (this isn't the first problem we have had with the car)

We pick the car up Monday so will report back.

Merry Christmas :-D

[chipped3]

I don't think you were being fobbed off by your Garage as this is the sort of weather that your flywheel can be covered with beads of condensation on cold mornings which will cause judder if not 'managed'. As an example tins of paint in my un-insulated shed were covered with condensation this morning up to the level of the paint...a useful guide as to their remaining content! The worst situation you can be in is having to make a start uphill from cold which can set off the judder with a 'wet' flywheel. This judder if allowed to continue will in time damage the clutch plate and wear the bearing in the DMF causing more judder.

Your observation that turning the steering lessens the chance of the judder is correct and is accounted for by the fact that it is easier for the engine to move the mass of the car with say the car on full lock than it is with the wheels straight ahead. If you have ever towed a caravan or trailer and find that trying to start to pull the car up a steep hill is well nigh impossible,....by reversing down slightly so that your car/caravan is at an angle to the direction of travel it will become much easier to pull away with far less strain on the engine and clutch. You are in effect only pulling half the weight of the caravan as it pivots around the momentarily static opposite caravan wheel.

My DMF/clutch was completely replaced under Warranty in 2004 with the same LUK clutch. The mileage is now 167k, over 100k on this present clutch/DMF simply by reving the engine slightly to displace the moisture and feeding the clutch in slowly so it momentarily 'slips', drying the plate in the process. It has worked well for me at those times in the year when the temp/moisture levels are unfavourable. I hate to slip a clutch unnecessarily but have not found what I am suggesting to be at all detrimental as my mileage indicates.

Keep us posted on the life of the new clutch.

[mhurer]

I started this post a year ago and now, a year on, I am familiar with the issue and how to manage it, so hardly experience judder any more. So given I have NOT had the clutch/DMF or any other component changed I must have learnt how to drive the car on cold mornings using the methods described. I was dreading this winter but now I have no problem with the car.

[markp306]

I don't think you were being fobbed off by your Garage as this is the sort of weather that your flywheel can be covered with beads of condensation on cold mornings which will cause judder if not 'managed'. As an example tins of paint in my un-insulated shed were covered with condensation this morning up to the level of the paint...a useful guide as to their remaining content! The worst situation you can be in is having to make a start uphill from cold which can set off the judder with a 'wet' flywheel. This judder if allowed to continue will in time damage the clutch plate and wear the bearing in the DMF causing more judder.



I suspect you are talking about different vehicles with milder symptoms. The judder issue here does seem to relate specifically to the B8 2.0 TDI 143 manual, where failed bearings allowed grease onto the flywheel. In my case, the judder issue was sometimes apparent on very hot days crawling in traffic. In fact it was at it's worse then when the car would literally shake, but our shortage of good UK weather meant that was too often!

[Crazyfool]

I thought it was down to me swapping between the cars. The convertible clutch doesn't engage until its almost all the way up, so I was paranoid I wasn't driving the avant correctly. It was juddering last week during the cold snap, but now it's ok.

[chipped3]

Hi markp306,

My references were initially to my 2002 Passat 130 TDI which suffered quite violent clutch judder during its third year VW Warranty in late 2004 and was replaced under Warranty.

I little over a year later when just out of Warranty in 2005I I felt the first signs of a repeat of the judder problem and decided to again phone Technical at LUK the DMF manufacturer. Fortunately I spoke to a different guy who had previousy worked for Rover who had had the same problem with their cars and had isolated the problem to be condensation on the flywheel when conditions were 'unfavourable'. His suggestion was as I have stated and the practice has solved my problem over the past 100k. Weather here in Wales plus the steepness of our drive has created my problem.

With a level or downhill drive I would probably never experienced the clutch problems at all but am the wiser for it. DMF's are the main contributory factor since my 1994 B4 Passat Estate is with my daughter and covered over 250k still with its original clutch.